Do you think appropriate vaccines could prevent ME/CFS/SEID

[sscobalt93]

i was talking about the statistical lifespan of the entire species. i don't think i was confusing anything.

I almost got hit by a car when I was 5. But I'm still alive. Therefore if my lifespan has significantly increased since I wasn't hit by that car.

 

[sscobalt93]

http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2014/06/pre-vaccine-declines-in-measles.html does a pretty good job of explaining what was happening, and cites to research.

Basically many of the deaths initially were due to secondary opportunistic infections. Hence the mortality rate decreased as antibiotics and other interventions became available. Additionally, rates of infection did not decrease, even while mortality decreased.

And of course even when measles does not kill it can still result in serious permanent disability, such as hearing loss, brain damage, and subacute sclerosing panencephalitis which can kill the patient even if they survive the actual infection.

Antibiotic resistant bacteria are on a rise. It's a catch 22 in this sense. Save us now from a disease/bacteria with western medicine and then 20-50 years down the line the medication doesn't work anymore. We are playing God in a sense. It's all going to catch up to us in ways we can never expect

 

[Wayne]

Oh, for those who would never be vaccinated again, what would you have done Ebola had hit the West hard

Hi @msf,

You may want to check out some of the work by Dr. Thomas Levy. He's done extensive research on Vitamin C and its ability to cure most of childhood diseases. He regularly makes references to Dr. Kenner, a 1940's country doctors who cured many children with polio using IV Vit. C--even those with advanced cases [160 out of 160 if I remember correctly]. So my short answer is, I would not get vaccinated, but would opt for IV Vitamin C if I were to contract just about any virus or bacteria that became life threatening.

60-Minutes did a segment last year on a New Zealand man who was in a coma and on life support after contracting the H1N1 virus. His family wanted the doctors to try IV Vit. C, but they fiercely resisted. It took a court order for them to comply with the family's wishes. The man came out of the coma within hours, his non-functional lungs became functional again, and returned to normal health in a relatively short period of time. There are other similar stories to this that for some reason doctors and the medical establishment adamantly refuse to consider. I think the answer as to why they stay so opposed is pretty apparent.

 

[Undisclosed]

Hi @msf,

You may want to check out some of the work by Dr. Thomas Levy. He's done extensive research on Vitamin C and its ability to cure most of childhood diseases. He regularly makes references to Dr. Kenner, a 1940's country doctors who cured many children with polio using IV Vit. C--even those with advanced cases [160 out of 160 if I remember correctly]. So my short answer is, I would not get vaccinated, but would opt for IV Vitamin C if I were to contract just about any virus or bacteria that became life threatening.

@Wayne Has Dr Thomas Levy published a single peer-reviewed article/research paper on the link between vitamin C and disease?

 

[barbc56]

60-Minutes did a segment last year on a New Zealand man who was in a coma and on life support after contracting the H1N1 virus. His family wanted the doctors to try IV Vit. C, but they fiercely resisted. It took a court order for them to comply with the family's wishes

How do we know the man wouldn't have eventually recovered with or without the Vitamin C?

I could go on and on about the fallacies used to promote the curative effect of vitamin C but perhaps that should be covered in another thread?

Barb

 

[Wayne]

@Wayne Has Dr Thomas Levy published a single peer-reviewed article/research paper on the link between vitamin C and disease?

My recollection is Dr. Levy has stated there are literally thousands of these kinds of papers that have been published. Also that Dr. Kenner published many as well. As I recall, Dr. Kenner was invited to speak to a gathering of the AMA in the early 1950's to report on his results of using Vit. C to cure polio.

He was apparently given a lukewarm reception, because everybody in the audience knew of the ongoing work on the polio vaccine, and really didn't have much interest in what they heard. My own take is that many in the medical field back then were likely more influenced by the potential of complex "exotic" high technology solutions than in more mundane, inexpensive therapies--even if they work.

 

[msf]

Hmm, I would still go for the Ebola vaccine, since it would (presumably) have been shown to confer immunity against Ebola - after all, prevention is better than cure.

 

[Wayne]

How do we know the man wouldn't have eventually recovered with or without the Vitamin C?

Well, the doctors were encouraging the family to take the patient off of life support--they had completely given up on him ever recovering. As I recall, no patient had ever come back from such an advanced case of H1N1 collapse. When this story was broadcast, other similar stories appeared, as relatives of other terminal patients wanted IV Vit. C be administered as well.

Medical professionals in both New Zealand and Australia where this was in the news resisted these requests. They said there was no scientific evidence to support this kind of therapy. -- Interesting that they would take somebody off of life support and let them die, but won't administer a simple therapy of Vit. C to see if it might help. Why such resistance? It's simply incomprehensible to me.

 

[Hell...Hath...No...Fury..]

I'd love to say yes they would prevent but i'd never touch another vaccine as long as i live since tetanus finished me off.

It seems up to 2009 the government recognised hep B vaccine as a possible cause of CFS and even paid possible compensation for workers. In the notes they even use the term ME giving the full name (ah the good old days)

I also noticed that you could claim for damage up to the age of 21 but not after that age... I was 20 when it destroyed me but i've long missed the boat to claim now.

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/whall/?id=2009-07-08c.307.0

Couple of bits from it:

Westminster Hall Debates, 8th July 2009: Vaccine Damage Compensation.

'Today, however, we are concentrating wholly on adult workers damaged by hepatitis vaccines. In the majority of cases, people may apply for a payment only before, and up to, the age of 21.

Adults can receive a vaccine damage payment for an adverse reaction to polio, rubella, meningitis C or human papilloma virus vaccines, though not for diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis and others, and some vaccines, such as those for hepatitis and influenza, are excluded completely.

Applications under the payment scheme often go to appeal, which is adversarial, and for which no legal funding is available to help applicants.'

Part mentioning ME:

'In the UK, the Department of Health acknowledges that chronic fatigue syndrome, rheumatoid arthritis and multiple sclerosis have been reported under the yellow card system as adverse reactions to hepatitis B vaccines, but points out that the reporting of the adverse reaction does not necessarily mean that it was caused by the drug or vaccine.

I should like to put it on the record that I had correspondence and a meeting with NHS Direct, now re-established as NHS Choices, about the deletion of vaccination as a possible contributor to myalgic encephalomyelitis in its online directory after 2006.

Up to that time, vaccination was listed as a possible contributory cause. I have been told that although there is no paper trail to say how the deletion came about, it is nevertheless correct as, in its view, there is no link between the hepatitis B vaccination and ME.

It is small wonder that workers who are damaged by vaccine are suspicious, and I have to say here that I am suspicious, too. Furthermore, the information leaflet on HBvaxPRO, which was published in 2005, stated that'

"serious side effects occur less frequently, and include allergic reactions certain severe types of rash, joint pain, muscle disorders such as Guillain-Barré syndrome and central nervous systems disorders such as multiple sclerosis."

'The difficult truth is that what we have in place in the UK is not fit for purpose. It is not usual for me to use such new Labour jargon, but, in this case, it is appropriate. The system was designed in 1979 for a specific purpose. It now needs to be redesigned, upgraded or perhaps replaced with something better.

 

[Undisclosed]

My recollection is Dr. Levy has stated there are literally thousands of these kinds of papers that have been published. Also that Dr. Kenner published many as well. As I recall, Dr. Kenner was invited to speak to a gathering of the AMA in the early 1950's to report on his results of using Vit. C to cure polio.

He was apparently given a lukewarm reception, because everybody in the audience knew of the ongoing work on the polio vaccine, and really didn't have much interest in what they heard. My own take is that many in the medical field back then were likely more influenced by the potential of complex "exotic" high technology solutions than in more mundane, inexpensive therapies--even if they work.

I can't find one paper by Dr Levy re: vitamin c.

Anything to do with vitamin c has been researched extensively and most of it has been debunked.

Extraordinary claims require some research to back it up. If vitamin C cured 'most childhood diseases', this information would be front and center and all our children would be well without Big Pharma even being involved. Third world children dying of preventable diseases would be able to have this kind of cure -- easily and inexpensively. This kind of outright quackery needs to be stopped.

As I recall, Dr. Kenner was invited to speak to a gathering of the AMA in the early 1950's to report on his results of using Vit. C to cure polio.

He would have had a 'luke warm' reception if he had no research to back up his statements.

 

[Wayne]

I could go on and on about the fallacies used to promote the curative effect of vitamin C but perhaps that should be covered in another thread?

I think it would be appropriate to discuss this here if you felt inclined. I've come to believe the whole vaccination narrative or "imperative" would change dramatically if major studies were undertaken to study whether IV Vitamin can indeed cure most childhood diseases. But I think we all know this will almost certainly never happen. There's tons of money of money to be made in vaccinations--not so in Vitamin C therapy.

 

[sscobalt93]

Sigh. Ebola wasn't going to be prevalent in the U.S. It was an expierement by the U.S. Government. Don't believe look it up. The Ebola outbreak didn't happen until the Red Cross vaccinated the people in Africa.

I hope you guys can believe that if not then I don't know what else to say.


Give it 10 years there will be another outbreak of something. Remember the Swine flu?

 

[barbc56]

@Wayne

These are ancedotal reports not hard core valid evidence which would make for a stronger argument.

Barb

 

[Wayne]

These are ancedotal reports not hard core valid evidence which would make for a stronger argument.

Well, some pretty compelling anecdotal reports in my opinion. Reports that to me deserve further research--by institutions that are outside the monied, political interests that do not want any research done into low-cost, effective therapies that threaten their income.

According to Dr. Levy, there are many reports that are far more than anecdotal, but generally ignored by the medical establishment. BTW, aren't anecdotal reports usually the first step in initiating new research? I don't understand why "anecdotal reports" are so often used in a pejorative manner. Not saying you were doing so, but it is very often the case.

 

[Snow Leopard]

Oh, for those who would never be vaccinated again, what would you have done Ebola had hit the West hard

Given the route of infection and the fact that no virus has been observed to change its route of infection, the chance of Ebola hitting the west hard is very low.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/ian-lipkin-ebola-how-worried-should-we-be-1407098183

The (experimental) vaccine is only really justified at this stage for medical workers who are at high risk of exposure due to treating patients with the infection.

 

[msf]

Sccobalt93, I definitely don't believe that!

 

[Undisclosed]

RE: IV vitamin C

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/a-closer-look-at-vitamin-injections/

On balance, the data supporting the use of vitamin C are unimpressive – it’s no wonder that few scientists are advocating for more use or even more research. An optimistic review article from 2009 reluctantly admitted that the evidence supporting efficacy is still lacking despite 50 years of research. When we look at current clinical trials, it’s equally unimpressive. Notably, two trials (NCT00441207 and NCT00626444) have concluded in the past few years but have still not reported any results, suggesting the results were negative.

 

[msf]

By the way, one of the things that puts me off conspiracy theories, apart from the complete lack of evidence and sometimes even rationality, is their parochialism - it's all about the US government! I find this to be just another facet of the US belief in it's own 'exceptionalism.'

 

[JaimeS]

According to Dr. Levy, there are many reports that are far more than anecdotal, but generally ignored by the medical establishment. Why?

Why believe Levy when he presents no evidence? You have to be aware of the high potential for quackery here, Wayne - he says there are thousands of studies. So where are they? If they've been suppressed by the Establishment, that strikes me as awfully convenient.

If vitamin C cured 'most childhood diseases', this information would be front and center and all our children would be well without Big Pharma even being involved. Third world children dying of preventable diseases would be able to have this kind of cure -- easily and inexpensively. This kind of outright quackery needs to be stopped.

Agree absolutely with the latter, but not necessarily with the former. There are inexpensive, not-very-well-publicized treatments that work well, and expensive ones that are 'well-researched' through flawed methodology but are well accepted. Not saying IV Vitamin C is one of these! Just the principle in general, that all good medicine is well-known.

A historical example is knee surgery: expensive, painful... and no better than placebo, as it turned out. I always talk about black cohosh as a cheap hormone balancer (and there ARE studies that say so. Hundreds, and you CAN find them on pubmed) when HRT is more expensive and less safe (which you can also find on pubmed - evidence of thickened uterine and ovarian lining leads to increases in cancer - a study demonstrating that BC does not do the same).

-J

 

[sscobalt93]

Sccobalt93, I definitely don't believe that!

You don't have to believe it, but have you even read about it? It's all over the Internet. Yes don't believe everything you read on the Internet but also don't believe everything that's on the news