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ME/CFS: A disease at war with itself
We can all agree that ME/CFS is a nasty disease, particularly in its severe form, but there are abundant nasty diseases in the world. What is unique and particularly confounding about our disease is that so much controversy surrounds it, and not only surrounds it, but invades it too.
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Do you have gum disease? Could it be tied to chronic inflammation?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Beyond, Dec 5, 2013.

  1. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    I have gingivitis. Everytime I brush my teeth I bleed enough to make me slightly dizzy. Sometimes is funny to look at the mirror smiling with blood sliding trough my lips and chin. I look like a vampire! :D

    I am sure this is a marker of whole body inflammation, be it a result of cortisol defficiency or more things such as inflammatory cytokines, autoimmunity...
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
    Allyson likes this.
  2. jstefl

    jstefl Senior Member

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    I have been told by a prominent CFS researcher that the problem is that our bodies become more acidic, and that acid affects the type of bacteria that can exist in our mouths. Some types of bacteria are good and necessary, but other types are very destructive.

    I have had serious problems with gingivitis also. I have my teeth cleaned every three months, and am using two prescription drugs from my dentist.

    One is Periostat, which is a low dose antibiotic, and the other is a mouthwash that contains Chlorhexadine Gluconate in a .12% concentration. I have a syringe that I can use to inject the solution into the cavities below the gum line to make the mouthwash more effective.

    Between the two prescriptions and the regular cleanings, I am holding my own.

    I have managed to do a number of things over the years to improve my condition, and have noticed that my gingivitis has lessened. Valcyte made the biggest difference.

    John
    Beyond likes this.
  3. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    That is very interesting John. Have you had your urine ph tested? The only time I remember mine was tested it was 6, which is in fact acidic, although not dramatically so.
  4. Ayaju

    Ayaju Senior Member

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    My mom had good results from her inflamed gums when she stopped using fluoride toothpaste. Hope that helps.
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  5. Allyson

    Allyson *****

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    [/quote]

    Hi Beyond,
    I had this and have my teeth cleaned regularly - every 6 -12 months - by a dentist, floss daily and brush twice a day and it is now good
    However if you are getting dizzy you may well have POTS/ OI and may want to get that checked - I assume you are standing when brushing your teeth too?
    Also dental problems such as dental crowding and periodontitis are very common in EDS - another illness with many overlapping symptoms with ME so you may want to look into that too
    best of luck ,

    Ally
    Beyond likes this.
  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    It probably does not apply to you, @Beyond, but bleeding gums is one of the symptoms that the new virus in China causes. This Chinese virus creates a ME/CFS-like disease, along with severe anxiety and anhedonia symptoms.

    There are people on this forum (see this thread) that believe they may have this Chinese disease.
    Beyond likes this.
  7. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    I had bleeding gums for years but using tea-tree toothpaste and mouthwash cleared it up quite quickly.

    Brushing my teeth always makes me feel dizzy as requires standing and having both the raise my arms and move them. Always difficult and I notice the same thing with hair brusing, using a hair dryer and trying to fold clothes.
    Beyond likes this.
  8. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    That´s a new idea for me. I always assumed I got dizzy from the loss of blood but how much blood I was losing?
    Well I will need to REALLY take care of my dental health. If the gum disease does not stop, I will know that is a symptom of the systemic disease. @Hip I knew bleeding gums could be a symptom of a pathogenic condition, I have this feeling that the soft tissue of the gums is a marker of health, as so is the appearance of the tongue (mine is swollen, cracked and coated).
  9. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    Sounds to me like a symptom of the undetectable infection ..... Gingivitis is caused by lipoteichoic acid which is an endotoxin associated with streptococcus, particularly plaque forming strep such as strep sanguinis/parasanguinis, or the endotoxin lipopolysaccharide which is associated with staphylococcus.. Start using the strongest anti-bacterial mouthwash available from the chemist as they specifically target strep, or mouthwash with apple cider vinegar 3 times a day.

    Tea tree oil toothpaste also helps ....

    Cheers.
    Beyond likes this.
  10. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    There are many potential reasons for bleeding gums, and some info here. I've had it for years and am not really bothered about it. I rarely clean my teeth (due largely to limited time and energy) and haven't visited a dentist for a very long time. I have actually had less trouble with my teeth since I stopped going to the dentist!

    If you think it's due to an infection you could try swilling with dilute grapefruit seed extract (NB may not be suitable for people on warfarin or similar drugs).

    I sit on the edge of the bath when cleaning my teeth. That may be risky when people have poor balance, dizziness or poor coordination, in which case I would bring a chair into the bathroom, or clean your teeth somewhere you can sit down.

    I try to ensure that I have something to sit on wherever I am in the house or garden!
  11. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Soon after I caught the nasty respiratory virus (which I think is an enterovirus) that triggered my ME/CFS, I developed periodontitis (receding gums), and also I suddenly got a lot of brown plague being deposited on my teeth. Prior to catching this virus, my oral health had been excellent. This periodontitis/plaque deposition also suddenly manifested in several other people who caught my virus. So it was not just me.

    You can see a picture of my receding gums half way down this page of my website, which details the strange symptoms produced by my virus.

    Enteroviruses (which are of course strongly associated with ME/CFS) are known to create a mild immunosuppression, and I suspect this immunosuppression may allow bacteria in the oral cavity to proliferate more (and this enteroviral immunosuppression probably also causes bad bacteria to proliferate in the intestines too, I would guess).

    Enterovirus infection is also known to induce the secretion of enzymes called matrix metalloproteinases (MMP). These MMP enzymes produced by the body specifically act to breakdown the connective tissues of the body. Connective tissues, which help provide structural support within the body, are made of collagen and elastin. There is a lot of connective tissue within the gums, so these MMP enzymes can directly break down and dissolve connective tissue in the gums, causing conditions like receding gums.

    So enteroviruses create two simultaneous conditions that undermine gum health: immunosuppression that may allow oral bacteria to proliferate, and the production of MMP enzymes, which attack and break down gum tissue.

    I am not sure if these MMP enzymes contribute to gingivitis, but they are certainly implicated in periodontitis (the enzymes MMP-2 and MMP-3 have been linked to periodontitis).

    Note that in my case, I don't have gingivitis (bleeding gums), but rather periodontitis (receding gums).

    Q10 is one of the best supplements for gum health. You take Q10 orally, but you can also bite open the Q10 capsule, and rub the Q10 inside the capsule (which is usually in the form of a viscous paste) directly onto your gums. A daily dose of say around 150 mg of Q10 is what you would need for gum health. If you take higher doses of Q10 (say 300 mg or more), I find this acts as an antidepressant and a mood booster, that makes you happier and more enthusiastic.

    Vitamin E has been shown to be helpful for gingivitis.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013

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