Fluge & Mella's pre-trial study highlights life-changing potential of rituximab
Sasha gives the background and Simon gives the interpretation of the latest study from Haukeland, published today...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Do you have crimson crescents?

Discussion in 'Immunological' started by Robin, May 22, 2010.

?

Do you have crimson crescents?

  1. I have them and I tested positive for XMRV.

    5 vote(s)
    5.4%
  2. I don't have them and I tested positive for XMRV.

    2 vote(s)
    2.2%
  3. I have them and I tested negative for XMRV.

    4 vote(s)
    4.3%
  4. I don't have them and I tested negative for XMRV.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. I have them and I have not yet been tested for XMRV.

    72 vote(s)
    77.4%
  6. I don't have them and I have not yet been tested for XMRV.

    10 vote(s)
    10.8%
  1. HopingSince88

    HopingSince88 Senior Member

    Messages:
    335
    Likes:
    5
    Maine
    Hello Judderwocky,

    I don't have the wormy thing. But welcome to the forums. We can be funny from time-to-time, in spite of our illness.
     
  2. judderwocky

    judderwocky Senior Member

    Messages:
    327
    Likes:
    3
    :)

    im still kinda reacting to these... i keep runing to the bathroom to see if they are still there.... the funny thing is, ive known they were there the whole time... but i never really recalled what my throat looked like back there before i got sick... when i got sick i knew it looked more red... but i assumed it was just allergies or something... ive had some breathing issues off and on... but i take NAC which clears a lot of mucus and i think it helps with my breathing.... i dunno
     
  3. spindrift

    spindrift Plays With Voodoo Dollies

    Messages:
    286
    Likes:
    12
    judderwocky,

    A warm welcome to the forum. I always enjoyed your posts on DS and am happy to see you found your way here.

    Smiles,
    Spindrift
     
  4. HopingSince88

    HopingSince88 Senior Member

    Messages:
    335
    Likes:
    5
    Maine
    DH often means 'Dear Husband' so maybe DS means "Dear Son"? just a guess
     
  5. judderwocky

    judderwocky Senior Member

    Messages:
    327
    Likes:
    3
    lol... i spent a rediculously long time trying to get close to the mirror and point the flashlight in my face... then i realized i could just point it into the mirror and it would reflect back... rofl
     
  6. cfs since 1998

    cfs since 1998 *****

    Messages:
    577
    Likes:
    5
    I have them at the back of my throat and a few in my mouth as well.
     
  7. awol

    awol *****

    Messages:
    417
    Likes:
    0
    cfs since 1998,

    The ones that are just in front of the tonsils on each side are the crescents. Anything else is something else - only two were part of the pattern recognized in CFS patients by Dr. Cunha.
     
  8. Boule de feu

    Boule de feu Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,115
    Likes:
    63
    Ottawa, Canada
    Thank you for this and for the awesome pictures! I have learned something new today and I thought it was not possible anymore (after 4 years of researching and looking for CFS facts). I have just joined this group and I'm pretty happy I have done so. I'm from Canada and I am surprised that my doctor/many specialists have never mentioned the CC's in my mouth (present for at least the last five years). Afterall, the Canadian Consensus was written here. Maybe my doc does not know about them or thinks that everyone has them, too?

    I'm surprised that there are only a few doctors aware of this and noone else is picking it up. It is probably not specific enough and could pinpoint to other diseases as well.

    Could anyone who has a perfectly normal throat post a picture, as well? It would be so appreciated!

    I'm pretty sure my daughter has them. She is 10, and already shows signs of CFS/fibro. Each time, she gets exhausted, she ends up with cold sores on her bottow lip. They get bigger and bigger. It's probably related to her immune system that is not working properly. My husband is also getting sick. It's hard to tell - he is fine one day and not the next. For the first time, last week, he told me: "I believe I have what you have." (and this time around, he was not joking!). It kind of made me feel good since I had the conviction (for the first time) that he thought my condition was genuine. I will have to check my son's throat. He is very athletic and ends up pretty dead (needs a couple of days to recuperate) after a day of intense biking.

    Since the XMRV discovery, I am starting to think that I have infected everyone. I'm really worried about that. But, how could I have prevented this from happening if I didn't know what caused it in the first place?

    By the way, my CC's are bright red, inflamed. I've had a sore throat, earache, headache (non stop) since November 2005. Since we could not find anything wrong, my doctor gave me some benzydamine HCL to numb my throat. It does not work well, and lately, it burns my throat more. I'll have to find something else that works. Anyone else dealing with the same issues? Solutions?
     
  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,415
    Likes:
    4,693
    I think I will add a picture of my own crimson crescent here (in the singular, because I only have my crimson crescent on one side of my throat):

    The Crimson Crescent In My Throat:
    Crimson Crescent 2 small.jpg

    The location of this crimson crescent exactly coincides with the area where I had the herpangina sore throat from the respiratory virus I caught a decade ago — the virus that I am fairly sure led to my ME/CFS.

    Herpangina sore throats are a particular type of sore throat that center on the back arch of the soft palette (the palatoglossal arch), either on just one side, or on both sides of this arch.

    Google images of herpangina sore throats: here.

    When I caught this virus, I only experienced the herpangina on one side of this arch in my throat — the same side where you now see this crimson crescent, which thus appears to be the long-term ongoing after-effect of my original herpangina.

    So to me it seems likely that crimson crescents are the ongoing long-term effects of the original herpangina, as my single crimson crescent appeared exactly on the side of the throat where my herpangina was centered; but on the other side, where there was no herpangina, I have no crimson crescent.

    This herpangina-into-crimson-crescents phenomenon may offer further evidence that the original virus remains chronically active in ME/CFS patients.


    Herpangina sore throats are generally only caused by certain viruses of the Enterovirus genus, namely coxsackievirus B, coxsackievirus A16, and enterovirus 71.

    This begins to add up, as ME/CFS is strongly linked to coxsackievirus B.

    (More rarely, herpangina can be caused by echovirus (also from the Enterovirus genus), parechovirus 1, adenovirus, and herpes simplex virus). Reference: here.



    I've had my tonsils out, by the way, which lends a different appearance to the throat.

    The white tongue coating you see is not thrush, incidentally, but geographic tongue (migratory glossitis). This tongue coating appeared after I caught the respiratory virus that led to my chronic fatigue syndrome, and is now a permanent symptom. There's very little research into geographic tongue, but I know someone who developed a similar persistent white tongue coating from a chronic viral infection similar to mine, and who put some of the white coating under a microscope, and was able to observe that the white coating was made of dead macrophages. So there is apparently some uncontrolled inflammation going on, if all these macrophages are rushing to the tongue area.
     
  10. Meggydoe

    Meggydoe

    Messages:
    1
    Likes:
    0
    i have both crescents and i have hypothyroidism and tested positive for Anti-TPO. could they be somehow related. i dont know what is XMRV and my ENT doctor and my Endocrinologist would say my mouth is fine. some days i feel the sore some days i dont. i just gave birth a year ago and they keep saying that grave's disease is common to flare after giving birth.

    im scared and would love to hear your thoughts!
     
  11. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

    Messages:
    1,229
    Likes:
    637
    Czechosherlockia, USA
    I have it both sides, plus the ever swollen submandibular lymph nodes to go with it.

    The only thing I found on it, aside from CFS and Lyme, says:
    http://www.life-sources.com/pdf/mycoplasmas-cell-wall.pdf
     
    Marlène likes this.
  12. Raines

    Raines

    Messages:
    86
    Likes:
    216
    UK
    HI,
    I know this is an old thread, but I came across it the other day (then of course spent some time staring at my throat with a torch and a mirror!) I also have the crimson crescents.
    Is there any more known about crimson crescents and ME/CFS?
    I'm struggling to find more recent information online.
     
    green_monster likes this.
  13. green_monster

    green_monster

    Messages:
    19
    Likes:
    86
    How interesting. I looks like I've got them as well. Is this a common finding in 'healthy' people or people with other illnesses? I can't find much information.

    I have had a permanent sore throat for decades.
     
  14. Aurator

    Aurator Senior Member

    Messages:
    218
    Likes:
    930
    I believe crimson crescents are found even in healthy people, but with a lower incidence than in PWME.
    If it's not already been mentioned in this thread, I seem to remember Anthony Komaroff, in his summary at the 11th International IACFS/ME conference last year, mentions crimson crescents as a recurring outward sign in ME/CFS patients. I'm trying to find the point in his presentation where he mentions it, but not having much success at the moment. Fortunately, it is mentioned on page 14 of the following document.
     
    Raines likes this.
  15. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,415
    Likes:
    4,693
    Can I ask, where did you see that?
     
  16. Aurator

    Aurator Senior Member

    Messages:
    218
    Likes:
    930
    It's mentioned here, but I've read it also in a quite recent and dependable source.
    Below is the relevant passage from the link:
    "In chronic fatigue you always find the crescents alone. The rest of the pharynx is uninvolved," he said. There is a small portion of the normal population that may also present with these crescents. "If you get a patient with a sore throat in the office, he or she can have crimson crescents, and the back of the throat is red," Cunha said. Cunha found crimson crescents in 3% to 5% of non-chronic fatigue patients who presented with non-specific sore throats.
     
  17. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,415
    Likes:
    4,693
    @Aurator
    My hunch is that crimson crescents might be the chronic manifestation of the original viral sore throat that is often a precursor to ME/CFS. My idea is that the crimson crescents are just areas in the mouth where the viral infection is still ongoing. Dr Chia found evidence of ongoing enteroviral infection in the stomach of ME/CFS patients, and the crimson crescents might be simpy an ongoing enteroviral infection in the mouth.

    And I guess it's possible that someone may have caught such a chronic throat infection, manifesting as crimson crescents, but without developing ME/CFS.
     
  18. Aurator

    Aurator Senior Member

    Messages:
    218
    Likes:
    930
    Thanks for your reply!
    My own layman's interpretation runs along similar lines, but I don't really know enough about the manifestations of viruses to be able to say whether it's tenable.

    Six months into my illness an ENT consultant had a thorough look down my throat. I had had laryngitis and pharyngitis, as well as crimson crescents, since getting the virus that accompanied the onset of my illness. I pointed out the crimson crescents (I didn't know to refer to them by that name at the time, but I had noticed their presence since the start of the illness) and he said oh it's just because you've got an URT. I said I'd had the same URT for over six months. He said no, that's impossible; you got over the original one and now you have a new one.

    It was useless trying to convince him otherwise. This was the moment to which I can date my awakening to the nightmare realisation that, in addition to having this illness, I was probably condemned to have any future assertions that I had a chronic infection (or at least a chronic condition) of some kind disbelieved. So far the realisation has proved well-founded.

    The crimson crescents remain as conspicuous as they were 18 months ago. The pharyngitis/laryngitis have waned a little though they can return with a vengeance at short notice as part of the dreaded PEM.
     
  19. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,415
    Likes:
    4,693
    A while ago I had some communication with Dr John Chia about these crimson crescents, and suggested to him that the crimson crescent tissues might contain the virus from the original sore throat that led to ME/CFS. These crimson crescent tissues, I thought, might be an easy area to access for tissue biopsies, compared to taking tissue biopsies from the stomach using an endoscope, which is Dr Chia's gold standard way of detecting enterovirus in his ME/CFS patients.

    Dr Chia said (in an email):
    I wonder, though, if he had tested the red throat areas specifically for non-cytolytic enteroviruses, would he have obtained a positive result?

    In adult coxsackievirus B myocarditis (which is considered a useful viral infection model of ME/CFS), you find enterovirus RNA in heart muscle tissues, but you can only very rarely isolate the live virus from these muscle tissues. This indicates the heart muscle hosts a non-cytolytic enterovirus infection, but not the normal lytic infection. So like with the heart muscle tissues, perhaps in the crimson crescents contain only non-cytolytic enteroviruses.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page