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Do MEs cause CFS?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Jonathan Edwards, Aug 10, 2014.

  1. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    I had a similar 'loss' of hay fever when the ME was severe. My gut hunch being the immune stem was too energy deprived to react.
     
  2. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    you have to sign up to researchgate to access any full paper, which they only allow if you are in a qualifying institution, or have published research (in Britain).
     
  3. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    One thing I previously noticed was an upward shunt in blood sugars (due to interferon stimulation of CRH) but few other symptoms except tiredness. Antibiotics produced improvements giving stronger evidence. As my ME improved and my immune system resurrected, I then got symptoms, not surprising since it causes most infective symptoms.
     
  4. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    Ninan,

    Genes are not only our 'genetic blueprint' they are effectively switches than turn every function on and off (e.g. making a new instance of an enzyme). Methylation is used to activate and de-activate genes. In other words to turn functions on and off. If you are deficient in SAM then vast numbers of functions could be partially affected - what effect that would have is harder to predict..
     
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  5. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    Interesting; thank you. I had been searching to try to figure out what immune molecule(s) caused fever (so I could search the ME/CFS papers and see if it was featured there), and I hadn't yet found a page that explained.

    Overinflammation makes a lot of sense, given how i feel and what medications help (out of what I've tried). Also it seems supported in the literature, but of course we need better studies and follow-up studies for almost everything.

    Very fascinating and helpful; thanks so much. I went and found Dr. Vallings' conference summary which I had not yet read, and looked at the pertinent parts. I will read all of it eventually!

    It's very encouraging to read that people are looking for ME antibodies.

    Like someone else said, I wish I could engage more highly with these ideas but my cognition failed.

    I just thought I would add the studies I was referring to earlier, in case it was helpful.

    Here is Yves Jammes finding M-wave variations in skeletal muscle (also Hsp variations, which a number of others find, but not always the same heat shock proteins--I started to catalog the Hsp findings once but haven't finished; other findings, too):
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19457057

    And here are Hollingsworth and Newton finding bioenergetic abnormalities in both skeletal and cardiac muscle. I have not seen the full text.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20497461

    ETA: this is probably different from what Jammes found, given their other work. /edit

    Second thought, I guess cardiac muscle goes with skeletal even though it is involuntary. So I guess I know of no experimental results for smooth muscle weakness.

    I don't fully understand either of these papers/abstracts, but it's clear they are finding, in very small groups of patients anyway, some kind of muscle dysfunction.
    They were finding some in the Royal Free outbreak, but I haven't checked to see if the citation from here is on PubMed yet.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2014
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  6. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    There are three types of muscle willow: skeletal, smooth, & cardiac
    Because the heart must beat continuously, it requires a muscle type with massive stamina
     
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  7. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I think (but would have to have a longer look at my health diaries to be sure, and just don't have the time for now) that if I continue to overexert myself over a period of days, the PEM doesn't set in during that time but after I have stopped, so it doesn't follow the start of the overexertion but the cessation of the overexertion. This could perhaps account for the people who think themselves recovered after a treatment that encourages overexertion. Somehow continuing the overexertion keeps the PEM at bay, then CRASH.

    But for some, a crash seems to occur during exertion, according to reports I've read here.

    My PEM delay also increased during a period of increasing wellness following the commencement of my leaky-gut diet and supplements in 2012, until it had become just about undetectable but I thought I could just about perceive it about a week after exertion. Since then there have been ups and downs, and my pattern is very unclear at the moment. I usually feel pretty well the day after exertion, but start to feel grotty on the evening after exertion or 2 days after exertion, thus about 30-48 hours later, at the moment.
     
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  8. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    My preferred theory relates to changes in the predominant immunoglobulin type, which I refer to in the thread that I linked to - in this post.
     
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  9. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    Yes I have but if the experienced blood nurses cant get blood from me, how on earth would I insert a the needle into myself and know Ive got it in a vein? I have been pricing up the needed equipment to try to do saline IVs for myself (not cheap) but really have my doubts if I would manage to be able to do it myself. (I have found someone to try to teach me (a lyme person who does her own IVs) but being housebound, I cant get to her place to learn and she's housebound too so she cant get to mine.

    But right now my health is at serious risk due to the severity of my low blood volume and of cause Im very affected by this issue too. (I cant even ME crash usually as my POTS hits me way first..so I cant do enough to even trigger the ME off much now).

    I just wish the medical profession would get some common sense as its obvious when someone is collapsed so having to be ambulanced to hospital every couple of weeks for an IV, that I should be getting these at home.

    anyway, best not to discuss in this thread. Its off topic and I dont wish to be rude to the dr (oh boy I've forgot his name). Message me if you have more to say about it. thanks.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2014
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  10. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    This page may help, for example this definition:

     
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  11. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    I used to get aweful hayfever too every year at certain time of year. I dont know if its just a coincidence but I no longer get it since i had ME (instead I just get food intollerences, MCS and not long ago had what could of been a life threatening food allergy). So it makes no sense to me why I'd get allergies to other things but loose my hayfever (so I tend to think its just coincidental).
     
  12. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    <---- is equally confused
     
  13. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    @Jonathan Edwards you need to watch this and the other three to concretely understand the problems its by the woman who set up the UK training centre for therapists.
     
  14. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    I have been looking into the same issue. I have managed to work out how fever is implemented, but not the full triggering chain nor exactly how the body 'decides' its fever time (meaning the biochemistry, not the functional pattern). It would be interesting to compare notes once I can give it some attention again.
     
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  15. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    I am vaguely aware of the two sets of imbalances widely discussed by medics, but as yet have not been able to find meta-analyses of the issues. I deliberately used the word 'hunch' re energy management due to a suspicion that the th1/th2 imbalance may be fall-out from that issue. The only thing I know with certainty is that when my ME was severe I had weeks or months of infection with few obvious symptoms then felt far less unwell but had far more infective symptoms as recovery began.

    In contrast to you I feel like hell when infected, but also suffer less allergic symptoms and am much more at the high fatigue, high weakness, moderate pain end of the spectrum than the high pain, more moderate fatigue end. My much stronger hunch is that each end of that spectrum involves quite different 'energy biochemistry'.

    It's such a shame you are unable to do a full publishable meta-analysis of your immune system readings.
     
  16. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    @Jonathan Edwards, apologies if you have already commented on this, but @lansbergen has just posted a message in another thread about the 'Cell Danger Response', linking to a scientific paper which is unfamiliar territory to me, and suggests a rather different potential cause for "a broad array of chronic, developmental, autoimmune, and degenerative disorders."

    Are you familiar with this concept, and do you have an opinion on it?
     
  17. Ninan

    Ninan Senior Member

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    It's about the same for me. The crash comes afterwards. If I'm on an adrenaline surge it usually comes when I start relaxing. If I've overdone it a bit and start resting the first thing that happens is that I get a lot worse (which doesn't make lying down more tempting). But if I keep overdoing it long enough the crash strikes anyway. Mid-sentence. Then it gets bad. So when I know I've overdone it, I try to rest as much as possible and let the crash come. The sooner it comes, the quicker I can get better again. If I do, that is. Sometimes I don't.
     
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  18. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    @alex3619 - I thought high levels of adenosine were caused by AMP being deliberately degraded and expelled from cells due to AMP/ADP/ATP being too large to pass through cell walls, other than during cytosis. What's your view on the paper?
     
  19. Marco

    Marco Old blackguard

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    It may not be a primary problem but autonomic/vascular issues that result in reduced blood flow/ischemia in the muscles, brain or both could produce the necessary 'danger signals' required to activate already primed glia in a scenario similar to ME5.

    One source gives the following durations of glial activation (which results in 'sickness behaviour') folllowing various types of peripheral immune stimulation :

    LPS (bacterial infection analogue) - microglial activation peaks at 8-24 hrs, duration up to several days;

    Poly IC (viral infection analaogue) - up to 8 days;

    BCG (yep - the vaccine familiar to UK schoolchildren) - possibly up to 3 weeks.

    One other mechanism that I'd considered is heat shock proteins. Jammes and others have found attenuated HSP production following exercise in ME/CFS patients. As I understand it HSP production normally peaks at around 48 hrs post exercise (which suggests to me, if they are doing their job properly, that this should coincide with the maximal cellular/oxydative stress). If this repair mechanisms is defective in ME/CFS patients then 48 hrs post exercise might be when you might expect symptoms to peak. Highly speculative but this timescale does fit that described in the International Consensus Primer :

    “prolonged recovery period: usually 24 hours, often 48 but can last days, weeks or cause a relapse”

    Worth bearing in mind though that PEM can also often follow purely mental exertion which would make the HSP mechanism less likely.

    Just some thoughts.
     
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  20. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I like this one as it fits in with my preferred theory! :D

    Exertion causes/exacerbates leaky gut.
    Leaky gut involves the translocation of LPS, e.g. http://www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?libid=14219

    Do you have a link to your source?
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2014

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