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Graham McPhee spells out some of the cold, hard facts about the dismal state of ME research and politics, and has some suggestions as to what we can do about it ...
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Do I have CFS, ME, ICL, or AIDS?

Discussion in 'Immunological' started by cfsboston, Dec 22, 2011.

  1. Levi

    Levi Senior Member

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    I respectfully disagree. HIV is accepted by the mainstream scientific community and medical orthodoxy as the cause of AIDS. I believe they are correct; the evidence is overwhelming. You are welcome to your opinion about that subject, but you are NOT welcome to confound ME or CFS with AIDS here. AIDS denialism is off topic and has nothing to do with ME/CFS advocacy.

    There is no such thing as CFS/AIDS, it is a made-up word game on your part and it is hurtful to those here who are gay or have lost gay friends or others to AIDS. Having visited the AIDS blanket with a gay friend made me clear on the magnitude of loss and human suffering as a result of HIV infections worldwide. And the loss of dear gay friends to HIV infection made that personal for me. It would be nice if you decided to post your repeated HIV denialism content to parts of the forum that were intentionally created for off-topic content. There, I would be happy to talk about the merits of Luc Montagnier's research and the subject of AIDS with you.

     
    wdb and CJB like this.
  2. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    I agree with Tony Mach: the reason why those with HIV have a longer life expectancy now is the development through the last several decades of effective therapies. Halting that research or reducing it much is undesirable, not only because it might give HIV time to evolve ahead of research in treatment, but because what we learn might help HTLV patients and others as well. I am in favour of continued HIV and AIDS research, I just think its does not make sense to have a population as large as the ME population, many of whom are severely disabled, and not spending more than chump change on research. I have said it before, but here it is differently: how much is a good amount for research for a disease costing the USA between 20 and 50 billion dollars a year (depending on claimed costs from different studies)? I am sure its more than a handful of millions. Not addressing this is the same as the USA administration (and this goes for every other country) saying that it is happy to lose tens of billions of dollars without doing anything much to stop it, for the indefinite future - and this cost is rising year by year. Bye, Alex
     
  3. Tony Mach

    Tony Mach Show me the evidence.

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    You forgot one:

    51. Because I have a tendency to favor information that confirms my "Non-HIV AIDS" believe, I will as a result gather evidence and remember information selectively, and interpret it in a biased way. (see "Confirmation Bias")
     
    wdb likes this.
  4. cfsboston

    cfsboston *****

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    Untrue. Anyone in Africa who presents to a doctor with symptoms (of basically anything) gets diagnosed an AIDS patient; HIV+ is not even a prerequisite. So an African could die of TB or a mosquito bite and their death would be ICD-coded as AIDS. AIDS (political paradigm) will get funded another billion dollars of taxpayer money all the same. It happens every day in Africa, even though it is not HIV that caused the death. So what would appear to be symptomatically labelled CFS or ME in 1st world countries is diagnosed AIDS in the 3rd world. Neither CFS nor AIDS are even diseases. As their names suggest, they are syndromes. A syndrome is a syndrome. CFS and AIDS are the same illness.
     
  5. svetoslav80

    svetoslav80 Senior Member

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    cfsboston, you actually believe yourself, don't you?
     
  6. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Cfsboston, you arrived last month and have rapidly started 6 threads, all related to this idea that CFS=AIDS. Nobody has replied agreeing with this premise. The replies are mostly attempts to educate you about the science of HIV and AIDS, which you reject out of hand.

    This is feeling disrespectful and inappropriate to me. This is an ME/CFS forum. If you want to argue about HIV-AIDS, I think you're in the wrong place.
     
    wdb, svetoslav80, CJB and 1 other person like this.
  7. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    I think its fair enough to make comparisons between ME and AIDS, and there are indeed similarities, but the scope of the differences make the two being equivalent extremely unlikely. It would be fairer to say, as an hypothesis only, that the two are in a similar family of immune diseases - acquired immune deficiencies perhaps, but not AIDS. AIDS refers to a very specific syndrome. It is not sufficient to list similarities, differences must be listed, and then models developed that account for them, if any claim to the ME and AIDS being equivalent are to have any credibility. I have not seen this done yet. Bye, Alex
     
  8. hurtingallthetimet

    hurtingallthetimet Senior Member

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    thanks for the info...i couldnt read through it all but will try to later...its very interesting....just the way people are treated with these illness is so unreal....not much sympathy or understanding it seems..maybe more research will be done to help
     
  9. cfsboston

    cfsboston *****

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    Stealth Virus Application to CFS

    Ever seen this research? HHV-8 is thought to be a major AIDS/CFS smoking gun. It should be front page news that HHV-8 has been found in CFS.

    "Prevalence in the cerebrospinal fluid of the following infectious agents in a cohort of 12 CFS subjects: human herpes virus-6 and 8; chlamydia species; mycoplasma species; EBV; CMV; and Coxsackievirus.
    Levine, S. Journal of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, 2001, 9, 1/2, 41-51.

    Abstract: Over the last decade a wide variety of infectious agents have been associated with the CFS as potential etiologies for this disorder. Many of these agents are neurotrophic and have been linked previously to other diseases involving the central nervous system (CNS). Human herpes virus-6 (HHV-6), especially the B variant, has been found in autopsy specimens of patients who suffered from MS. Because patients with CFS manifest a wide range of symptoms involving the CNS as shown by abnormalities on brain MRIs, SPECT scans of the brain and results of tilt table testing we sought to determine the prevalence of HHV-6, HHV-8, Epstein-Barr Virus (EBV), cytomegalovirus (CMV), mycoplasma species, chlamydia species, and Coxsackie virus in the spinal fluid of a group of 12 patients with CFS (CDC criteria '94).

    We found evidence of HHV-6, HHV-8, chlamydia species, CMV and Coxsackie virus in 6/12 samples. Plasma tests were negative. It was surprising to obtain such a relatively high yield of infectious agents in cell free specimens of spinal fluid that had not been centrifuged. Future research in spinal fluid analysis, in addition to testing tissue samples by polymerase chain reaction (PCR) and other direct viral isolation techniques will be important in characterizing subpopulations of CFS patients, especially those with involvement of the CNS.

    The low rate of isolation of HHV-6 may be related to the lack of gross neurological findings in the patients at the time of testing."
     
  10. cfsboston

    cfsboston *****

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    New retrovirus, HIAP-II

    Source: http://www.autoimmune.com/Non-HIVAIDSTest.html

    Idiopathic CD4+ T-lymphocytopenia, or Non-HIV AIDS, is associated with a patented retroviral particle called Human Intracisternal A-Type Particle-Type II, or HIAP-II.

    Autoimmune Technologies is developing viral protein antibody tests based on HIAP-II that the Company believes will be useful in diagnosing Non-HIV AIDS. These tests may have other important uses as well, including use in the screening of blood products.

    These tests are still in the laboratory stage and are not yet generally available for investigational, clinical, or other use.
    ...
    Non-HIV AIDS patients may comprise perhaps one percent of all AIDS patients. While the majority of Non-HIV AIDS patients do not belong to any of the risk groups such as blood transfusion recipients, male homosexuals, and intravenous drug abusers in which AIDS was first identified, some Non-HIV AIDS patients do belong to these groups. This suggests that Non-HIV AIDS may also be transmissible.

    Research conducted at Tulane University Medical Center suggests that Non-HIV AIDS is associated with a retroviral particle called Human Intracisternal A-Type Particle-Type II, or HIAP-II. Antibodies to this particle have been found in a high percentage of patients with Non-HIV AIDS. Tulane has patented HIAP-II, and Autoimmune Technologies is licensing HIAP-II technology in order to develop screening and diagnostic tests and therapies for Non-HIV AIDS and to study the possibility of generating vaccines against Non-HIV AIDS, autoimmune disease, and AIDS.

    http://www.autoimmune.com/Non-HIVAIDSGen.html
    www.cfsstraighttalk.blogspot.com
     
  11. cfsboston

    cfsboston *****

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    I forgot to mention that... I've always understood that retroviruses are not cytotoxic; they do not kill cells. I don't see how any retrovirus (like xmrv) can be the cause of any Immune Deficiency Syndrome (like CFIDS). My blood has been to CDC-Atlanta twice now, and I know that I have no retroviral activity in my body. But I thought other people might want to investigate further, if it pertains to them.
     
  12. Daffodil

    Daffodil Senior Member

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    i thought HIV does kill cells...
     
  13. anciendaze

    anciendaze Senior Member

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    In a letter to one doctor I know I cited this with the comment "everything but HIV".
     
  14. cfsboston

    cfsboston *****

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    HIV causing AIDS is unproven theory.

    Actually being that I am a HIV-Negative AIDS patient, my case shatters HIV-->AIDS theory...and is the reason why so many scientists want my blood. I have been blogging about it for years.

    This is a good award-winning documentary on the HIV/AIDS story being rewritten. 2.5 minute trailer: www.houseofnumbers.com I got a copy at my public library. If the library doesn't have it, you can just ask the circulation desk to obtain a copy for their circulation collection.
     
  15. cfsboston

    cfsboston *****

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    I am not the author. That is why I sourced it. I happen to like #48 the best.

    My ICL medical file is one undisputable fact, and it currently sits that the intersection of both political paradigms (CFS, AIDS). Neither CFS nor AIDS are diseases. You are right...because I am a CFS/NON-HIV AIDS patient I favor CFS/AIDS research material. But I don't remember information selectively, I use only what can be objectively applied to my one constant (i.e., me).
     
  16. cfsboston

    cfsboston *****

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    http://www.autoimmune.com/Non-HIVAIDSGen.html

    Idiopathic CD4+ T-lymphocytopenia, or ICL, is an immunodeficiency syndrome in which human immunodeficiency virus, or HIV, cannot be detected. Because HIV is the causative agent of acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS), ICL can be referred to as Non-HIV AIDS. As in AIDS patients, Non-HIV AIDS patients exhibit reduced numbers of CD4+ T-lymphocytes, and many Non-HIV AIDS patients have developed the opportunistic infections or otherwise rare cancers associated with AIDS.

    Non-HIV AIDS patients may comprise perhaps one percent of all AIDS patients. While the majority of Non-HIV AIDS patients do not belong to any of the risk groups such as blood transfusion recipients, male homosexuals, and intravenous drug abusers in which AIDS was first identified, some Non-HIV AIDS patients do belong to these groups. This suggests that Non-HIV AIDS may also be transmissible.

    Research conducted at Tulane University Medical Center suggests that Non-HIV AIDS is associated with a retroviral particle called Human Intracisternal A-Type Particle-Type II, or HIAP-II. Antibodies to this particle have been found in a high percentage of patients with Non-HIV AIDS. Tulane has patented HIAP-II, and Autoimmune Technologies is licensing HIAP-II technology in order to develop screening and diagnostic tests and therapies for Non-HIV AIDS and to study the possibility of generating vaccines against Non-HIV AIDS, autoimmune disease, and AIDS.
     
  17. cfsboston

    cfsboston *****

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    "A disturbing announcement was made at the July 1992 international AIDS conference held in Amsterdam: Several people with symptoms of AIDS, but who had no evidence of infection with either HIV-1 or HIV-2 (the viruses generally believed, at the time, to cause AIDS), had been identified by the U.S. CDC. A few weeks later...Newsweek made an even more shocking announcement: that CFS researcher Dr. Paul Cheney had in his practice 20 CFS patients who had the same immune system deficiencies as the non-HIV AIDS cases revealed at the Amsterdam conference." http://www.fms-help.com/aids.htm
     
  18. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    there was someone on the prohealth before pr existed who was a patient of cheney or peterson in the early 90s who said she had low cd4 count and was neg to hiv
    . From memory She had been tested and examined by govt officials, i dont think she got any treatment other then symptomatic stuff, they didnt know what to do with her and because she didnt die within a few years they abandoned any further research. Last i heard she was still alive but sick, i cant recall her name, daffodil might be able to recall her name or someone else from prohealth ten years ago. cheers
     
  19. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I had a similar disease onset from an immunosuppressive virus a virus which also went on to infect many other people in my social circle. I think this virus may be a new enterovirus strain in circulation.

    Have quick glance at the symptoms produced by my virus, listed on the top of my web page here:

    Chronic Sore Throat Virus

    and see if the symptoms profile of this virus I caught matches what you have experienced. One of the strange symptoms that my virus precipitated was a "crepe paper" like fine skin wrinkling across the body, but this is only seen in slightly older people (35+ say).

    Do you know the incubation period of the virus you caught (incubation period = the time between your encounter, and the appearance of the very first acute symptom)? My virus has an incubation-period of around 8 to 24 hours (a fact observed several times as other people contracted it).


    You might also want consider whether you have caught new "HIV-like" virus circulating in China:

    http://sites.google.com/site/newhivaidslikeviruschina

    See also Hanchuchu's PR thread on this new Chinese disease:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?931-emergency-report-from-China

    It is conceivable that my virus is one and the same as the Chinese "HIV-like" virus; however, there are certain differences of symptoms that make me think that the Chinese virus may not be the same as mine.

    The Chinese "HIV-like" virus does produce a lowered CD4 count in may people (and sometimes a raised CD8 count as well). In many cases, the CD4 count returns to normal after a few years with the Chinese "HIV-like" virus, and some of the symptoms then improve; but nevertheless, this Chinese disease remains a chronic condition.

    Officially the Chinese government have denied that this "HIV-like" disease is real, and claim that its mental symptoms (like super extreme anxiety) and physical symptoms are psychogenic/psychosomatic. Same old story with government inertia. However, most of the Chinese virologists that have looked into this disease are saying that it is real, and that is caused by a microorganism of some sort. But as censorship and pressure to tow the government line is still strong in China, these scientists have to be very careful about what they say officially.

    Chinese laboratories has shown that this "HIV-like" virus is NOT a mutated version of HIV, in spite of the name people have given it. The only slightly unusual virus (in my view) that was detected in the blood of these patients by a medical doctor in China named Dr. Zhou Rong was a Coxsackie B3 virus (see the translated Chinese website here). Many of the symptoms of the Chinese "HIV-like" disease are in fact quite typical of coxsackievirus infection.


    Idiopathic CD4 Lymphocytopenia (ICL)

    I think you are going down the wrong route with your focus on ICL, and especially with these conspiracy theory ideas that HIV does not cause AIDS.

    Idiopathic CD4 Lymphocytopenia is diagnosed when there is a CD4 count of less than 300 cells per mm3 of blood (with an absence of HIV antibodies). Normal CD4 counts of healthy adults are in the range of 500 to 1500 cells per mm3 of blood.

    Although ICL has been associated with a retroviral agent called HIAP-II (Human Intracisternal A-Type Particle-Type II), ICL has more than one cause. The elderly sometimes develop ICL, and marathon runners frequently get ICL, and yet are in the pinnacle of health. So this low CD4 count is not of itself a real health problem.

    In fact, low CD4 is common in people who have "viral infections, bacterial infections, parasitic infections, sepsis, tuberculosis, coccidioidomycosis, burns, trauma, intravenous injections of foreign proteins, malnutrition, over-exercising, pregnancy, normal daily variation, psychological stress, and social isolation" (ref: here).

    So there's no big deal about having low CD4.
     

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