The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Do I have Adrenal Fatigue or Cfs ?

Discussion in 'Adrenal Dysfunction' started by plaruno, Sep 23, 2017.

  1. matt321

    matt321

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    Unconscious stress

    And its hard to quantify scientifically. Heart rate variability is the best known and widely available tool to gauge this. It's a way to measure the engagement delay of the CNS on a basic level.

    It was explained to me as a "stress bucket" Take all of your known life stress's, add them to all of your exertion stress (exercise). Now you have a level of conscious stress. When you add unconscious stress, the bucket is way over filled. Its hard for me to define unconscious stress easily in this forum, but think of it as unexpressed fear, anger, hate, love...etc.. Basically unexpressed emotions.

    It looks like low carbing and high fat burning utilizes the body's stress response system to fuel itself. Cortisol is raised, testosterone goes down..etc. Im not the authority on explaining this, but they reach a point where something changes hormonally. The symptoms are identical to initial crash stages of CFS. Blood sugar is then disregulated, sensitivity to light, digestion slows, speeds..etc, feeling crazy, disconnected..etc.

    The common theme is high fat, very low carb while still exerting in a significant way.... IE stress. Someone who overtrains like this is generally disconnected from awareness of stress to the body. The ones that I see that have crashed are usually unaware of unconscious stress levels.

    Generally speaking, carbs should not be eliminated when the CNS is over engaged. Having said that, if we are talking about severe anxiety, (and not CFS) a breakfast of high fat and high protein is usually the way to go. Jordan Peterson explains it pretty well that when you suffer from anxiety, eating a bunch of carbs will knock you back into an anxiety response due to a reactive hypoglycemic insulin response that will take until the next sleep period to resolve.
     
  2. Sushi

    Sushi Moderation Resource Albuquerque

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    That is not typical of my initial crash stages.
    References please!
    References please!
     
  3. matt321

    matt321

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    @Sushi I was never tracking my references. Im no academic. All I was focused on was moving out of my hell. It's only now that I wish i was tracking every part of my research evolution. I researched real people that were on the forefront of this eating and crossfit evolution. I was seeing an endo who just happened to have done his thesis on reactive hypoglycemia and carbohydrate restriction 40 years ago. I tracked my glucose levels in real time to see the reactions of most foods i eat. I paid to consult with several top nutritionists that have been witnessing these things for years.

    I have probably close to 1000 hours in body performance forums, consulting, and discussion groups. Most of this led to ruling out people and info. I have spent almost 10k on blood and stool testing. This taught me how studies can be both right and wrong and who I could trust with what particular info.

    One example of how I don't necessarily need a study is social media. Early on, I felt like social media was a really bad thing. I felt like it was a digital heroin, that just like smoking was socially acceptable at one point, social media would go from mainstream to potentially dangerous. Studies now conform this. Studies are often a late stage of an evolution that was easily observable to those in the trenches collecting data in real time.

    Another example. I was a turf chemical expert for a long time. The group that I worked for dealt with thousands of accounts and were obsessive perfectionists. We would go to seminars by top turf scientists for re-certification credits (by law). Every seminar ended with a circle of us surrounded by the researchers asking us for more info. We were on the front lines seeing things change in real time and had to develop our own protocols based only on what we could observe that worked. Then we could engineer it backwards to know why. We were ahead of them and their research. Science can be like the government...reactive long after the fact. Observation is my jam.

    My obsession in life is to understand what is actually causing something when someone just assumes a reason. My curiosity stops me from sleeping sometimes.
    My interest in documenting things is almost nonexistent.


    What were your initial crash stages like?
     
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  4. Sushi

    Sushi Moderation Resource Albuquerque

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    A hollow feeling in my chest, unable to be upright, indescribable feeling of a serious medical crisis, sometimes get premature atrial contractions--most of it is hard to describe, but I know that I must lie down and not move until it passes. I've tested my blood sugar at this time--normal, blood pressure--low normal. I don't have sensitivity to light, my digestion is normal, no psychological symptoms.
     
  5. The Chronicals

    The Chronicals The '59 Sound

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    This is a great write up of Adrenal Fatigue.
     
  6. soxfan

    soxfan Senior Member

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    I am just curious ....if you have a low normal blood cortisol at 8am could that cause some of the “Adrenal Fatigue” symptoms or should I just figure it’s CFS?

    Mine was 8.2 with the range being 5-24 in that lab... would a low dose of Cortef help in the morning? I have unrefreshing sleep...hard to get going...ridiculously low stress tolerance...crash around three pm.

    I have no idea if there really is adrenal fatigue...I just want to feel a little better. The only doctor I went to that believed people could indeed have Fatigued adrenals was my Lyme doctor and he was a legit MD...
     
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  7. The Chronicals

    The Chronicals The '59 Sound

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    You can indeed have normal blood cortisol at 8am - most people do with AF although many do have subclinically low levels, we are not talking about Addisons Disease (primary) or Secondary Adrenal Insufficiency. The issue with AF is that the Adrenals are unable to keep up the demands throughout the day - which causes further disturbances to the HPA and the body is unable to maintain is equilibrium.

    3PM is always a key AF trait, and ridiculously low stress tolerance.

    Much like CFS and ME, we have to reply on anecdotal evidence due to lack of medical understanding and testing. Whether you 'believe' in AF or not, is normally how much credit you give to western medical science and the pharmaceutical industry (both very much aligned especially in the US), my questions always remains though, for the naysayers about AF, how is the medical fraternity helping you with their 'protocols' - considering there are forums like this packed full of lifelong chronically ill people, I'd say not to well! So always good to explore more options.
     
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  8. matt321

    matt321

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    Can't answer that for you. All we are talking about is that in many cases, CFS parallels a known condition that is "referred to" as adrenal fatigue. Specific cortisol patterns have been identified to correlate with fatigue. Its basically showing you something you already know through feeling and observation.

    No one can answer this for you. At this point it would be trial and error, with the understanding that you are thought to be managing symptoms, not causes.

    It doesn't matter if the the condition known as adrenal fatigue is recognized or even real. The treatment for it is the same as overtraining and CFS and doesn't conflict with anything. Rest properly, eat properly, live properly. For me and many other people with CFS, this means assuming that we didn't know what was actually best for us, giving that fixed view up, and rebuilding only what was observed to be beneficial.
     
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  9. soxfan

    soxfan Senior Member

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    @The Chronicals ...Thanks...my doctor told me she would only treat if my level had been 5 instead of 8. I also told her I crashed hard after the test but I figure since they had pumped all that stimulant into me that was bound to happen when it ran out.

    I also believe my adrenals just can’t keep up. I know my body is screwed up from Lyme even though I feel it has been eradicated...I wasn’t diagnosed till two years later after initial symptoms.

    I am trying to decide if I should pursue looking for a doctor who will give me a trial of low dose Cortef or if it really won’t help much...that is my dilemma.

    I never thought I had Addison’s...just that my cortisol supply runs out rather quickly and my brain is not communicating that it’s needed. I actually think my adrenals are probably okay but not getting the message....or I am not replenished overnight.
     
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  10. The Chronicals

    The Chronicals The '59 Sound

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    Did you have a STIM test? Christ, yeah that is the ultimate way to crash yourself - you probably felt quite good or rather normal for an hour or so, before everything started going downhill.

    A simple way of checking the feedback loop - therefore seeing if its just a communication problem, is raising your serotonin levels - when serotonin is high, cortisol is naturally increased - thus if you can tolerate dosages of 5htp for prolonged period, I feel this signifies that your adrenals are fine and its a signalling problem. For me, even 5mg of 5HTP crashes my adrenals within a few hours, so I know for sure signalling isn't my issue.

    Have you done a 24 hour saliva ASI test?

    You can try Hydrocortisone therapy yourself, it can be bought . online from reputable sources (its what the STTM group use for their adrenal treatment protocol) and you can dose according to their guidelines or the book by Dr Jeffries 'The Safe Uses Of Cortisol'. It unfortunately, like many protocols, has positives and negatives. If you have had long term AF, you probably will have receptor site damage and thus when throwing cortisol at your body, it can really mess things up. Also liver impairement to remove the metabolites - this was my issue - Cortef would work for me for a couple of days and I'd feel normal - but then everything began getting backed up and I'd turn into the Incredible Hulk of speed = however, there are MANY people that have been helped by cortisol therapy, so its definitely something to investigate further. Unfortunately, as you probably know, everything is trial and error in this game :(
     
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  11. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Hi @soxfan

    I've taken Cortef for probably 15 years now. After all these years of taking it and researching it, I think the best way to discern whether you need it or not is by doing a trial with it. So I think you're on the right track.
    I still haven't determined for sure why I need Cortef. My best guess is that my HPA axis is dysfunctional and not sending an appropriate signal, and that my adrenal glands are probably OK. Either way however, I do need to supplement with Cortef. It really made a HUGE difference for me.​
     
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  12. soxfan

    soxfan Senior Member

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    @Wayne ...My problem is getting a doctor to prescribe it. My endocrinologist refuses...my Intergrative doctor is in the same practice (Duke Hospital) and so is my PCP. I have determined I need to go out of that system and look elsewhere.

    I am fairly certain a low dose could make a world of difference for me. I agree that my adrenals are most likely okay but not receiving the signal ....that’s what I was told by my Lyme doctor.
     
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  13. The Chronicals

    The Chronicals The '59 Sound

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    United Pharmacies.

    But if you think its signalling, then 5HTP.
     
  14. soxfan

    soxfan Senior Member

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    @The Chronicals ...Yes had the stim test. That’s what crashed me for two days. All my levels were normal so yeah my adrenals will work if doused with a huge amount of stimulant. I understand that when it’s given they will respond.
    I agree that the problem with me is that the signal is not being given and so my adrenals are not being replenished and I start off low in the morning.

    My husband is a pharmacist so I will have him look into ordering it someplace. That is my only hope of given it a trial run. There isn’t any doctors ...well any of mine that will write a prescription for it.

    I have never tried 5HTP...I am afraid to honestly. I have the weirdest reactions to almost everything...but it might be worth a try.
     
  15. The Chronicals

    The Chronicals The '59 Sound

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    Doctors fear steroids, as the pharmaceutical industry ensured that they where educated with fear and scare tactics as there is no money to be made out of plain old cortisol...but Lexapro - well theres an earner right there.

    I react to everything, even fizzy water - so I know your pain :) Go low and go slow and always have a break after a couple of days.
     
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  16. soxfan

    soxfan Senior Member

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    @The Chronicals ...Forgot to mention that I have had the saliva cortisol testing at least three times. All three I was basically flat line all day but normal at night. It has been many years since I have done one...I think the last was 2012. None of the doctors I have been to here believe in them and even if I ordered the kit myself I still wouldn’t be able to get treated....
     
  17. The Chronicals

    The Chronicals The '59 Sound

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    The ASI is merely for you to be able to dose your supplements/HC, but I would get a current one before embarking on HC supplementation...Doctors strangely dont 'believe' in them yet Barts Hospital Trust in the UK actually use it for Adrenal Insufficiency paitents, yet their endocrinologists ignore them. Go figure.
     
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  18. matt321

    matt321

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    We are literally talking about a well known situation(in some circles) that is now being studied as the basis of Cortene.
     
  19. soxfan

    soxfan Senior Member

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    I read an article on Health Rising..promising stuff hopefully.
     
  20. The Chronicals

    The Chronicals The '59 Sound

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    Be really nice to see....Adrenal Fatigue finally officially 'real', although I imagine the 'scientists' will put a new name on it and pretend like it was all their idea :)
     

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