August 8th, 2016: Understanding and Remembrance Day for Severe Myalgic Encephalomyelitis
Jody Smith joins with other ME voices in honor of Understanding and Remembrance Day for Severe Myalgic Encephalomyelitis.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Do I have Adrenal Fatigue or Cfs ?

Discussion in 'Adrenal Dysfunction' started by plaruno, Sep 23, 2017.

  1. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

    Messages:
    5,246
    Likes:
    31,970
    Yes, if anything one would expect it to be associated with increased adrenal gland activity. It has nothing to do with a concept of adrenal fatigue.
     
    TrixieStix likes this.
  2. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,260
    Likes:
    736
    I think pregnenelone steal is a real observed phenomena. You're body is using up all the preg to make cortisol to combat inflammation from autoimmune/viral infections, and leaves you with lower levels of other endocrine hormones.
     
    manasi12 and pamojja like this.
  3. TigerLilea

    TigerLilea Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,136
    Likes:
    3,405
    Vancouver, British Columbia
    From today's Quackwatch newsletter:

    Systematic review blasts “adrenal fatigue" diagnosis

    Some healthcare providers are using the term "adrenal fatigue" to describe an alleged condition caused by chronic exposure to stressful situations. According to this theory, chronic stress can lead to "overuse" of the adrenal glands, eventually resulting in their functional failure. Last year, two Brazilian endocrinologists concluded that "adrenal fatigue"—also referred to as "adrenal burnout" and adrenal "exhaustion"—should be regarded as a myth. Their review analyzed the 58 most relevant studies identified in a systematic literature search. [Cadegliani FA, Kater CE. Adrenal fatigue does not exist: a systematic review. BMC Endocrine Disorders 16:48(1), 2016] A Science-Based Medicine article describes the origin and danger of the "adrenal fatigue" concept. [Gavura S. Adrenal fatigue: A fake disease (updated). Science-Based Medicine, June 29, 2017]
     
    Kina, ukxmrv and ljimbo423 like this.
  4. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

    Messages:
    1,206
    Likes:
    2,002
    Pacific Northwest
    Its been my experience that Quackwatch and Science Based Medicine are not reputable sources of information. Both have bashed several treatment modalities I've found to be quite effective and there is good science behind.

    As for adrenal fatigue, it seem to be a semantic problem.

    As someone who has had a flat saliva cortisol profile, inadequate cortisol on a DUTCH test, and who relies on 25mg of hydrocortisone (replacement dose) a day, in divided doses, to not be in a heap on the floor, I don't care what the name is.

    Hormonal dysfunction is a known part of ME/CFS for many of us, and testing and treating it makes a lot of sense.

    And, those who aren't experiencing low cortisol crashes can argue about it all they want....
     
    Mary, pamojja, The Chronicals and 3 others like this.
  5. Kina

    Kina

    Messages:
    10,132
    Likes:
    17,219
    Sofa, UK
    How does one explore 'millions of cases of ill health'?

    Yes, it is somewhat 'archaic' to have a medical viewpoint to actually investigate the causes of 'non-specific' symptoms rather than just putting them down to some fake illness like adrenal fatigue.

    Patient: 'I feel very tired all the time, I have been gaining weight, I feel light-headed all the time, I seem to be forgetting things all the time.'

    James L Wilson: 'This sounds like adrenal fatigue to me. Here take these supplements that I sell.'

    Patient: 'I feel very tired all the time, I have been gaining weight, I feel light-headed all the time, I seem to be forgetting things all the time.'

    Archaic Traditional Doctor: 'How have you been sleeping'. 'Are you waking up during the night'. 'Is your sleep refreshing' -- more archaic questions follow until doctor suggests a simple sleep apnea test to start with.

    Wilson has failed to demonstrate that 'below optimal adrenal function actually results from stress'. What is natural healing? Natural healing of what? If Wilson were right and stress causes below optimal adrenal function that results in all these non-specific symptoms, wouldn't it be more appropriate to remove the sources of stress rather than to take a supplement?

    The difference between ME and adrenal fatigue -- one is a neurological illness accepted by the World Health Organization, the other is a illness made up by a naturopath to make money.

    If you were to talk to recently graduated Endo's you find the same thing -- adrenal fatigue is a made-up disorder.

    Again, ME is a recognized medical condition with a set (or two) of consensus criteria that defines it and lays out how it is to be diagnosed -- re: what has to be present for a diagnosis and so on. AF seems to have the criteria of whatever symptom you are having is down to AF.

    Where is the consensus criteria for adrenal fatigue? 'Chemical masking' -- of what? What is 'true healing'. You seem to be throwing these words around but what do you mean.

    The bodies ability to maintain homeostasis is not just down to the adrenal glands.
    According to Wilson, the purpose of the quiz:
    But adrenal fatigue isn't a real illness. How can you indicate the presence and degree of something that doesn't actually exist Can you name some 'real illnesses' that have been cured or put into remission by vitamin and supplements (other than actual vitamin deficiencies)?

    You are missing the point adrenal insufficiency is a real and serious medical diagnosis. You are erroneously conflating adrenal insufficiency with adrenal fatigue.

    Again, ME, CFS are defined as real illnesses by the WHO, AF is not considered a real illness.

    If a disease isn't real then a supplement can't heal it. This is pointless because you seem wedded to the idea the AF is a real illness.

    You go on and on about pharmaceuticals and the financial element. What about the supplement industry churning out supplements that have little or no research to back up what they are said to do. The supplement industry is worth billions. What -- "once healed from AF, you may never need a supplement again". How so? If AF is caused by stress, then wouldn't it follow that AF would recur over and over again based on stress level? You aren't making a lot of sense with your comments and they aren't very logical either.

    If a supplement can cure a mass of unrelated symptoms as you are suggesting -- why isn't it all over the news, the new treatment for the masses etc? I can think of many reasons.

    ME and CFS has a lot of research behind it. You might want to attend an IiME conference -- the amount of research discussed there is mind blowing.
     
    TigerLilea, Valentijn, Mij and 2 others like this.
  6. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,337
    Likes:
    4,408
    London
    I'm in the low cortisol camp and I still don't want adrenal fatigue associated with me

    The reason why is that it comes with some unwanted and inappropriate baggage. It is claimed with "adrenal fatigue" that the adrenal glands have been exhausted through stress or emotional overload

    I don't to be associated with a theory that starts and ends with stress and burnout

    It doesn't fit my circumstances. There is no proof that anyone with low cortisol now ever had a period of producing very high cortisol that led to the adrenals failing.
     
    TigerLilea, Wonko, Kina and 1 other person like this.
  7. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,260
    Likes:
    736
    I think the hardest lesson to learn is that adrenal fatigue is not your adrenal glands "getting tired"

    Once you realize this, then you start trying to figure out exactly what is going on, and you realize that there is something else causing them to act improperly, and that has to be your HPA-axis. But then something is causing that to dysfunction as well, and then you come to a few major possibilities, like:

    Auto Immunity
    Pathogen (virus, bacteria, candida, parasite)
    Toxicity
    Deficiency
    Genetics / methylation

    And this is where you find the "root cause" of "adrenal fatigue"
     
    pamojja, ljimbo423 and ukxmrv like this.
  8. The Chronicals

    The Chronicals The '59 Sound

    Messages:
    56
    Likes:
    68
    London

    Couple of questions if you may..

    1. In the say 1940's how was CFS/ME explained?
    2. What are the lab tests used to determine CFS/ME? (please dont include speculative elimination tests)
    3. Was it not the World Health Organisation who told us that eating sugar/carbs was good and eating fat was bad?

    I appreciate you seem fairly elderly from your comments and lack of an open mind, and have probably grown up with the belief in Western Medicine (much like my parents and grandparents)

    As the poster above mentioned very well, there are a lot of semantics involved in the term Adrenal Fatigue, and what you have mistakingly done is used the word 'fatigue' to 'hone in on', much like many of the general public 'hone in' on the fatigue aspect in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - but is CFS all about just fatigue, of course its not. So please, try to stop being one of those very same people that ridicule and misunderstand the sufferers of CFS, it isn't doing you any favours in terms of respect.

    So while you keep repeating, like a skipping stylus on an old beat up record, AF, is a real illness (illness and disease are also two different things in some respects so please use the correct terminology to avoid confusion)

    While you may believe that pharmaceuticals are the way forward - how is that working out for you? How long have you been ill now? Ever thought that maybe you could try something new and see how that works out? How many stories do we read of people harmed by pharmaceuticals, especially in the ME/CFS world? I agree, both industries are multi billion pound word of corporate, and this is a sad fact. But the Pharma industry is built on 'repeat business' and therefore it is in their interest to keep you coming back for more.

    You also mention how supplements cannot heal illnesses? I find this very archaic and such an outdated view point, it is 2017 you know? You have to look back to early medicine and all those herbs and plants that where used to treat disorders - well they where mimiced by the pharma companies, for example say Lemon Balm and and it's effects on gaba receptors - then we look at Benzos - similar action (but with huge long term side effects), so what came first? Nature or a lab? We can also look back to when Addisons Dieease was treated with Adrenal Cortex Extracts, but it couldnt be patented, so the industry moved on to synthesized steroids. In fact , Thyroid extracts are still used in tradition medicine aren't they? So, as they are classed as supplements, but used to treat an illness - did that lightbulb just come on?

    At no point have I ever said the bodies inability to keep homeostatis is solely down the adrenals, but in AF, it is a huge part.

    Also, if you understand the recovery from AF, it is about 20% supplements - used to nourish and support the body, and the rest lifestyle, beliefs, rewiring the neurological pathways through yoga and meditation to rewire the 'stress response'. It seems yet again, you have focussed on the semantics of the phrase , without actually taking time to fully understand the disorder, yet you seem to want to continue to argue the validity of the illness, without fully understanding the symptoms that make up the disorder. This is quite arrogant to be fair.

    Dr Lam has actually progressed quite a lot in his understand on this illness from Wilson, and his work is very detailed. Granted, he uses supplements, and he is expensive for consultations, but no more than seeing a specialist and paying for scripts. So instead of targeting in on Wilson, you can study some of lams and Hans Seyles work to further understand the illness/syndrome.

    I find it comical almost that you are telling me about Adrenal Insufficiency, when 1, you do not suffer from it, and 2, I do, which was brought on by years of chronic stress exposure. In those years prior to SAI, I would be off been classed as AF, now, because of mistreatment and misunderstanding, I have Secondary Adrenal Insufficiency. If you want to argue that with your Wikipedia and Quackwatch quotes (editable by anyone those sources btw), please give Professor Arlt and Queen Mary University Hospital in Birmingham, UK a call - please transcribe the call for me, as I'd love to hear that. While she dosen't like the term Adrenal Fatigue either, she completely understands the stages of Chronic stress, and how that can eventually lead to damaged adrenals (one may say fatigued, one may say damaged - semantics).

    So I retract back to my previous comments that you have avoided MANY times now. ME and CFS were once described as hocus-pocus illnesses, and in fact still are by many many GP's, but times are changing and thankfully in the past twenty years more work has been put into it and its becoming more acceptable as an illness. We will eventually see the same with AF/GAS, once they accept that treating it with sSRI's does not work in the long term - (but again we reply on Pharma companies for research so if that will happen who knows). Even Burnout is now a recognised illness, which is a big part of AF, so we are getting there, in the 80's it was know as a 'yuppie flu'. So eventually hopefully, like ME and CFS, we may see further progress in understanding it. Fingers crossed, would help so many people.

    So please, you DO NOT understand the syndrome, and because of that you are not qualified or experienced enough to make a judgement on it. It seems you have a bee in your bonnet trying to disprove someones illness, when in fact twenty years ago, you would of had to prove your own illness. Whats that all about?

    Theres probably a few points I've missed, but I've definitely given way too much of my precious time to you already and beginning to lose focus a bit as Im kinda bored, we get it - you aren't a 'believer', thats fine, and we will have to agree to disagree on what is real and what is not .- I have to ask you though, are you Religious? I'll leave you with that. x
     
    pamojja likes this.
  9. The Chronicals

    The Chronicals The '59 Sound

    Messages:
    56
    Likes:
    68
    London
    Really good post, and yes you are right, semantics definitely involved.

    Quackwatch, much like Wikipedia is freely editable and as you rightly state, is skewed information much like a reporters take on a situation.

    'And, those who aren't experiencing low cortisol crashes can argue about it all they want....' - How true is this! :)
     
    pamojja likes this.
  10. Kina

    Kina

    Messages:
    10,132
    Likes:
    17,219
    Sofa, UK
    There was no such thing as CFS/ME in the 1940's. CFS was a termed coined in the 80's and I don't believe ME and CFS are the same illnesses.
    There aren't any lab tests to specifically diagnose ME. One can measure POTS, PEM, two day CPET. You don't seem to understand the reason for consenus criteria.
    Yes, indeed the WHO said that but as science progresses, old research is replaced by new research. So are you suggesting that because the WHO posted something erroneous, it therefore follows everything they post is erroneous, even the statement that ME is a neurological illness?

    Ageist much? And no I am not 'fairly elderly'. Are you going to discount the comments of members who are over a certain age? I am not going to agree with everything that you have posted so rather than accept that you choose to call me a closed minded old person. Not the best way to debate something. Yes, I definitely believe in 'Western Medicine', one kind of has to when their career was -- a Registered Nurse. It's pretty hard to get a Bachelor's of Science Degree in Nursing without learning any actual medical science. By the way, we were trained to take a holistic approach. Treat the whole person, not just the illness.

    I am sorry re: disease vs illness -- must be my advanced senility. I shall clear that up. AF is definitely not a disease. AF is definitely not an illness. Nor is it a 'syndrome'.
    Please provide some research that shows that AF is a real illness accepted by the medical community and that supplements can cure it.
    Did I ever say pharmaceuticals are a way forward? How is that working out for me? I am not taking any pharmaceuticals except pain killers and thyroid meds which are working out quite well for me. I also use some supplements to assist with sleep and that is working out for me too. I also had a very serious infection in the past that could have killed me, those antibiotics worked out quite well for me.

    Um, the supplement industry also makes sure people come back for more.
    Do you know what I mean when I mention supplements? I am not talking about medicinal plants being used to treat illnesses. That was all there was in the past. Things like St. John's Wort, Willow Bark contain active ingredients that can decrease symptoms. There are quite a few plants today used in cancer treatment even today. In reality, anything that is 'natural' is simply made up of different chemicals.

    A supplement is a product intended for ingestion that contains a "dietary ingredient" intended to add further nutritional value to (supplement) the diet. Supplements do not cure illnesses. Whether they prevent illness might be something that is debatable.

    How does one recover from something that does not exist? You are arguing that basically lifestyle changes are going to make one feel better with a few supplements thrown in.

    Please provide some evidence for your points without resorting to insults.

    The adrenals play a part in homeostasis not adrenal fatigue. Please provide some research that supports your 20 percent comment.

    Validity refers to the quality of being well-grounded, sound or correct. Adrenal Fatigue will never be a valid illness until there is some sound research to state that it is a valid illness.

    You seem to love interjecting some lovely ad hominems. Now I am arrogant for stating that AF is not a real illness. Please provide some research that proves it is. I understand how the adrenals work well enough.

    I have studied Hans Selye. I have an undergraduate degree in Psychology where Selye was brought up a lot related to psychological stress. It's kind of like the lightening process -- psychobabble made to look like an effective biological treatment.

    I pay nothing for either seeing a specialist or paying for scripts (I am totally exempt from paying for meds).

    I find it comical that you believe that one can't discuss an illness without suffering from it. So do all cancer doctors need to have cancer to properly address it. Ridiculous. I believe that chronic stress can certainly have an impact on the body but it doesn't have to mean that it ends up with tired sad adrenals that can only be cured by supplements. I think stress can cause some pretty serious symptoms.

    I didn't quote anything from Wikipedia or Quackwatch.

    Burnout? Wouldn't burnout be a symptom rather than an illness. Please provide some research that discusses this. Is this from the DSM-V that pretty well defines everything as an illness.
    I am not trying to disprove AF, I don't need -- the whole medical community dismisses it as a non-illness. I am not dismissing that people have serious symptoms that need to be looked after.
    What does religion have to do with anything? I am not posting this information for you anyways. I think members can see that your comments are illogical and that you really don't have any answers other than to interject insults. This happens a lot when somebody can't back up their statements with actual research. I am trying to add information for those who don't know very much about AF. At the end of the day, members are going to choose what they want to believe anyways.
     
  11. The Chronicals

    The Chronicals The '59 Sound

    Messages:
    56
    Likes:
    68
    London
    Hi Again!

    'no such thing in the 1940's as ME/CFS' - Exactly.

    'No lab tests to diagnose ME' - Exactly

    You are failing to grasp the idea, that years passed these illnesses where not 'official', yet later on , they where. There was reports of the symptoms of this conditions, and theories put forth (much like Hans Seyle did for AF), and eventually, we saw it 'recognised.

    'No such things as AF in 00/s'

    'No lab tests to diagnose AF'

    See where we are going with that? So, AF, will one day, be recognised in a similar fashion.

    That finishes that discussion really.

    I am not really debating anything, what I am doing is supporting all those people that suffer from AF without support or understanding from the medical fraternity because they have yet to understand it - unless those that have been through it have done, i.e Dr Lam, Dr Poesnicker (Chronic Fatigue Unmasked 2000) etc. There are plenty others, if you are interested, you can research yourself.

    Yes I am aware of your education, and this explained quite a few things to me. You have been programmed by a certain set of theories, but unfortunately , as they have yet to cure many many illnesses, western medicine is not perfect and therefore will evolve daily - but we do find the more senior in those sectors arent able to comprehend that its not perfect, and until it is, there is room for all theories.

    AF - is not a disease no, its a syndrome and an illness. Aologies if you have advanced senility, my nan did as well, its not a nice thing - my condolences. As for some research, Dr Lam is at the forefront of that - and as we have stated many times before, although not 'officially' accepted by the medical community (you keep referring to this and we have already been over the fact thast it 'isn't' in its names sake meaning'). Im not a particular fan of Dr Lam myself and his recovery methods don't work for everyone (but work for many),but being an MD he has a solid basis for his theories - much more education than an nurse will ever have. The recovery proof is anecdotal, much like recovery from CFS and ME, as have you have said, there are no tests to prove ME or CFS, so therefore there is no lab tests to prove recovery from said illness, its purely experience based anecdotal, much like recovery from Af is. Only the sufferers can understand this.

    Pain killers (makes sense) and thyroid meds? Would that be dissected thyroid gland? Thats a supplement isn't it? (although can be prescribed). As I have said, I hate any industry that is based on money and pharmas, supplements, same either way really, and western medicine of course has its major place in helping people - thats not whats being argued here. I see you have eloborated on your supplement thoughts - good turnaround.

    Supplements support the human body and gives the right ingredients and materials to ensure the miracle of the self healing systems of the human body can do the job it was designed for, to self heal.

    How does one suffer from something that does not exist? You are arguing because a scientist hasn't denoted that it 'exists' and popped it on Google, you are discharging the idea because you don't suffer from it. Thats really bad form for a person who is evidently very involved in a forum built for support for sick people.

    The World Health Organisation is one of the most corrupted 'organisations' ever created, but that is a whole different discussion.

    "Adrenal Fatigue will never be a valid illness until there is some sound research to state that it is a valid illness" - You have almost grasped it here. That research will come, and if you wish to choose to denote it now, then thats your perrogative, but many of us sufferers and forward open minded thinkers never discount anything when we have direct experience.

    You understand how the adrenal system works by previous dated theories.

    "I have studied Hans Selye. I have an undergraduate degree in Psychology where Selye was brought up a lot related to psychological stress. It's kind of like the lightening process -- psychobabble made to look like an effective biological treatment"

    Psychobabble to look like an effective biological treatment? is this a joke or a windup, ill take it as a joke! funny. So you don't believe in neuroplasticity?

    "I pay nothing for either seeing a specialist or paying for scripts (I am totally exempt from paying for meds)" - Again missing the bigger picture - someone pays to see a specialist be it youre insurance company, government, NHS etc etc. So those costs are similar.

    "I find it comical that you believe that one can't discuss an illness without suffering from it. So do all cancer doctors need to have cancer to properly address it."

    Yes, you can discuss it, but don't discount it because you dont suffer from it. I would never dream of discounting the symptoms another person complains of if i didn't have their illness.

    I am not trying to prove AF, I don't need too. Millions suffer worldwide, and the ones that went looking for answers when Doctors ran out and where still suffering, found their illness and have since recovered and are back to leading great lives. You are still sick arent you? Im not using this as a way to belittle your methods, but you know, the truth might be out there.

    I am already aware you are religious, hence why you would't commit to the answer to that. So you believe in something that dosent exist and has no scientific proof? Summarises my entire argument really. You can of course come back to whole 'need proof need proof or you cant speak' palava, and if in the 1940's we did this with CFS, you would be me wouldn't you? Exactly.

    Also putting my replies on moderator 'awaiting approval' so you can read it first to make your response and to not allow others to reply before you is pretty poor by anyones standards!

    As I've said before, I was happy to agree to disagree with you, be the better person in the interests of harmony and peace, but no doubt you will come back with more and we will continue this as a tit for tat, which is rather saddening considering both of us, are essentially sick people who have lost much life to illness and disease.
     
    pamojja likes this.
  12. Kina

    Kina

    Messages:
    10,132
    Likes:
    17,219
    Sofa, UK
    So are admitting it isn't a real illness then?

    Excuse me, I don't have advanced senility, do you not even understand a basic joke made in jest?

    Again you choose to respond with insults -- particularly ageist insults -- @Jonathan Edwards -- how do you feel about being the repeated insults from this member related to age? Apparently if you are over a certain age, everything you believe in is wrong and archaic.

    No, not dissected thyroid gland -- eltroxin which works just great keeping my thyroid levels at the levels they should be. I wouldn't take dessicated thyroid gland -- can't know that you are getting a steady level and there is always the issue of contamination.

    If you are aware that I am religious then you aren't aware of anything really because I am not. I love the way you make pronouncements about people based on nothing but your owning blinding biases.

    I am not a moderator, I can't put anybody on moderation. Perhaps you were put on moderation because of your repeated personal attacks and insults. You might want to read the rules though because you are repeatedly breaching them.

    Bye bye, your comments aren't even worth reading -- hello Ignore button.
     
  13. adreno

    adreno PR activist

    Messages:
    4,843
    Likes:
    11,028
    From his posts, it is clear that everyone who disagress with @The Chronicals is either close minded, unintelligent, religious, senile or mentally ill. What a waste of good Internet bandwith he is. Oh well, at least there is an ignore button.
     
  14. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,446
    Likes:
    4,756
    The other side.
    I am fairly close minded, nearly senile, pretty dim these days, and the PHQ-9 says I am seriously depressed (what a stupid test, I can't believe anti depressants are given on the basis of it), and although not religious - I still disagree with him :p
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
  15. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,269
    Likes:
    5,030
    Darn, those were the good ol' days . . . ;)
     
  16. plaruno

    plaruno

    Messages:
    8
    Likes:
    11
    Thank you guys for your responses. I am sorry I couldn't reply your posts , I was so frustureted about the situation

    This was the answer that I wait instead of debating about adrenal fatigue I will consider your advices.
     
    ErdemX, Wonko, pamojja and 1 other person like this.
  17. plaruno

    plaruno

    Messages:
    8
    Likes:
    11
    I am really sorry about your story but I will look into some of the tests you mentioned above and try to find my own recovery if its possible. I was wondering is it possible to heal when studying at university. Are there any people who can manage and improving their ilness without giving up their daily life? Thank you so much !
     
    ErdemX and pamojja like this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page