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Do B12 and Folate increase Histamine?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by TheMoonIsBlue, Jun 1, 2011.

  1. TheMoonIsBlue

    TheMoonIsBlue Senior Member

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    I was just browsing a search engine and found this info on lots of sites, that people with high histamine, or "Histadelia" should avoid b12 and folic acid. Anyways my nasal allergies have been terrible for the last few days, nose clogging at nighttime, (housebound right now, so have not been outdoors no outdoor allergy exposure) and I just re-started taking the Methylfolate and MethylB12.

    Now it could be a complete coincidence but I was just wondering if increased allery symptoms have been seen in other people? Is it temporary- like my body trying to get rid of excess histamine? If this is the case, is there anything I do to help? Already taking antihistamines and nasal allergy spray. Thanks.
    Allyson likes this.
  2. TheMoonIsBlue

    TheMoonIsBlue Senior Member

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    Anyone know?
  3. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    You could try some SAM-E, it really helps my allergies.
  4. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Moon.

    The concept of "histadelia" comes from the work of the late Carl Pfieffer, which is now carried on by William Walsh. High histamine occurs in people who are getting folic acid as their main source of folate, but are not able to convert it readily to the active, chemically reduced forms of folate. I think this is due to having inherited a slow version of the DHFR (dihydrofolate reductase) enzyme, which normally carries out this reaction. It has been found that the activity of this reaction varies a great deal among different people (by a factor of 5, or 500%!)

    Folate normally impacts the degradation of histamine levels in two ways. One is that the normal breakdown of histidine, from which histamine is made, requires tetrahydrofolate, a reduced form of folate. Deficiency in this is what accounts for elevated Figlu (formiminoglutamate) on urine organic acids tests, such as the Genova Diagnostics Metabolic Analysis Profile.
    The other way folate impacts histamine levels is that the intracellular breakdown of histamine is carried out by a methyltransferase reaction, and this depends on having adequate methylation capacity, which in turn depends on having enough methylfolate, another reduced form of folate.

    For a person with this DHFR problem, taking folic acid will just add more inactive folate, and its absorption will compete with absorption of the active forms of folate, such as are found in natural (not folic acid fortified) foods. Nowadays it is possible to obtain methylfolate as a supplement (unlike at the time Pfieffer did his work) as L5-methyltetrahydrofolate (Metafolin, FolaPro, MethylMate B, Deplin (by prescription)), or the racemic 5-MTHF supplements.

    So the problem in histadelia is not caused by too much B12 or folate, but not enough of the proper forms. Folic acid should be avoided particularly by people who have elevated histamine. It is not the best form for other people, either, but can be used by most to make the active forms

    There is an over-the-counter synthetic form of the normal extracellular enzyme that breaks down histamine (diamine oxidase, an enzyme that requires copper and B6). This form is called Daosin, and is produced by Sciotec in Austria. DAOSiN is also available under the brand name DIASIN in Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Histame in the USA and Canada.
    It can help in lowering histamine until the folate status and the methylation cycle function can be improved.

    Best regards

    Rich
  5. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    KDM prescribes this for those who have elevated histamine while taking GcMAF. In the US it is available at:

    http://www.iherb.com/Naturally-Vita...nd-Intolerance-Support-30-Capsules/16475?at=0

    Best wishes,
    Sushi
  6. TheMoonIsBlue

    TheMoonIsBlue Senior Member

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    Thank you so much, Rich! Once again you come through with a "home run" of an explaination :) Too bad there aren't many MD's out there like you!

    I will definitely look into Histame. I am just a little concerned because I tried an animal enzyme formula in the past and had a very bad reaction it it (Pancreatic Enzymes). I developed symptoms of severe hypoglycemia which went away after stopping it. I don't relish the idea of taking something made from Porcine Kidney...LOL.....wish there was a vegetarian version.

    But I will probably give it a go.

    Thanks again.
  7. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Cortisol counters histamine so it could be an indication that you are too low in cortsol. Before I was treated with low dose steroids for underfunctioning adrenals I had high histamine meaning I used to react to everything including anything tight on my skin would bring me up with a rash. The doctor said I was unusual!

    However I don't think I was unusual because it is common in this illness to have low cortisol. Now I don't have the problem because I have a more normal level through substitution. Have you ever had a 24 hour saliva cortisol test to see what your actual levels are? You can order them yourselves from Genova Diagnostics and if indeed you were low throughout the day you could try something like an adrenal cortex glandular or Isocort which should clear up the problem after a period of time. I used to have appalling hay fever throughout my life, now all I get is the occasional itchy eye which is sorted with a few eye drops.
  8. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    Hi

    I recently came across lots of info on the web on this topic. The info started at a Pfieffer/Walsh website and many other sites also. From what I read, high histimine = under methylator and low histamine = over methylator.

    I spent a while wondering how this fits into the methylation protocols here and after a while dismissed as it took up unnecessary headspace and decided to limit my focus to Rich/Freddd's methylation protocols.

    While doing more surfing here, I found some posts relating to this issue:

    If you are at all look at the over/under methylation issue (refer post #32 http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...lation-and-precursers-(laymans-version)/page4

    Also, http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...rom-Methylation-Protocols&highlight=histamine

    If the Pfieffer/Walsh stuff is what you found on the web, then there is an interesting bit on histamines right at the bottom of this link (called, Part 2: Histamine) although the entire page is worth reading (http://www.enzymestuff.com/methylation.htm ).

    I have assumed that the sites where you read about this were the Pfeiffer/Walsh sites (and sites that refer to their work)- of course that is a wild assumption and my response may well turn out to be a red herring and not help at all.
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Topaz,

    The over/under methylator is a red herring as far as I am concerned. The lists of symptoms detailing these so-called conditions. Every symptom on each list was a b12 and/or folate deficiency symptom and I and most others had roughly equal numbers from both lists and both lists contained "depression". I used lists combined from several sources. I have posted these lists color coded for what deficiency and indicated which ones I had from both lists.

    Lack of methylfolate or mb12 will both cause high histamine conditions and much greater allergic and chemical reactivity.
  10. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd

    Glad you're back! Although Im a newbie, about to start methylation, you've been missed by me :D as Ive had so many questions. Nice to know that you're missed, even by people who you don't know! A week has been a long time!

    I agree about the over/under methylation issue and my response included a previous post of yours on this subject. enzymestuff.org article also addressed the same issues.

    Best
  11. lucyhem

    lucyhem

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    I have had a high histamine response all my life. Insect bites are especially painful and bothersome. I also have extremely high food sensitivities. Two doctors who treat many people with food sensitivity have been shocked at my levels. On both skin and RAST test. I am noticing that, on the protocol now for a few weeks, I am constantly itchy. Have some small rashes around my wrists which may be poison ivy or may be the beginning of hives, which is uncommon for me. So I am considering trying Histame. I am amazed none of my doctors has ever recommended it. Also I am concerned about the label warning say it is not for use with those who have immune based allergies. What is the difference? I have always considered my issues immune based. Is there any risk to trying the Histame? I would love to have something that helps with the histamine reactions to food and insects.
  12. therron

    therron

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    Hi Lucy,
    I recently had a huge rise in my histamine levels on the protocol. I'm not sure which supplement or food is bothering me. So frustrating. I do tend to have huge reactions to supplements and must always be careful to go low and slow. I'm considering the Histame also, since this recent round of histamine has even tightened up my throat. I'm wondering if anyone has used this in conjunction with the mehthylation protocol and can relate their experiences. Are others getting histamine reactions too?
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi therron,

    An induced folate deficiency, whether glutathione/NAC or folic/folinic acid or even vegetable food folate might do that. It's not methylation, it's a shutdown of methylation.
  14. newradost

    newradost

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    Hi, just want to share something amazing. Me and my 3 yo boy are high at histamine and he is with severe food allergies. I read a lot and decided to start Rich's protocol over me to test. I was doing fine and I tried b12 metyl form and l
  15. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, newradost.

    It looks as though your post got chopped off. I would be interested in reading the rest of it. "Amazing" sounds good!

    Best regards,

    Rich
  16. newradost

    newradost

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    Oh yes! Sorry. Again: I was doing fine for a week, just slight headache and so I give my kid. He had a rash over elbows and neck, but I wasn't afraid. Stopped and started again. Again rash. Then it starts good and in a week he began to eat tomatoes!
    PennyIA likes this.
  17. newradost

    newradost

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    Before that he can only touch tomatoes with tongue. And bananas for example upset his stomach and mast cells react also by making inflamed gut. Red circle around anus and pain.... So.... We are waiting for Haskins test results and will paste them here.
  18. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, newradost.

    O.K. Thanks for the news. I hope the protocol will continue to help both of you.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  19. newradost

    newradost

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    Thanks!
    I meant Yasko tests.
    I have single mthfr but I don't know for the kid. May be its our case and hence histaminosis
  20. newradost

    newradost

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    We are both at 30 uid for the Dao enzyme. The range is over 70 uid. Most of the people with problems are around 50 uid

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