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Digesting without enzymes?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by oh_noes, Jan 14, 2014.

  1. oh_noes

    oh_noes

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    This is part of a question I asked in another thread I made earlier today, but I thought it deserved its own thread: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...plements-for-deficiencies-alternatives.27576/

    I want to quit taking digestive enzymes because there appear to be none which don't contraindicate my issues; they all contain either bromelain, quercetin, papain, or an excipient such as magnesium stearate, matodextrin or something which contributes to excipient overload (I take around 50 supplements a day, which means a LOT of excipients). However I've been using them for seven months now and I'm concerned my body may have already lost the ability to digest without them. Whether that's permanently or temporarily I do not know; I was told to start taking them due to the leaky gut and chronic inflammation, without knowing if I even required them, frankly.

    18 days ago I started on 1 tbsp ACV before each meal, as it was recommended in the candida protocol with the added benefit of being high in potassium. At the suggestion of a holistic practitioner (who I have sparse contact with, so it's not an option of simply quizzing her in depth about anything), I've also been taking HCI+Pepsin in the middle of each meal intermittently. Would these two things alone help sufficiently, or do I genuinely require a broad spectrum digestive enzyme now indefinitely?

    Furthermore, is it safe to come off the digestive enzymes just for a trial period? In that I mean will it actually do me real damage to come off them? The one I am on contains papain, which is a thiol/sulfur donor, and I have hyperammoneia; should I just try to deal with the ammonia with a weekly activated charcoal + magnesium citrate flush?

    Gratitude extended in advance :) and apologies for all the questions!
     
    snowathlete likes this.
  2. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    @oh_noes
    I think taking digestive enzymes just helps your body's natural enzymes which may not be enough - its not a question of them taking over - say for instance like a thyroid substitute eg.T4 - they enhance rather like HCL - it doesn't stop your body producing acid it just adds more which helps if you need it.

    If you stop taking them your body will carry on producing what its producing whether that's enough only you can tell.
     
    oh_noes likes this.
  3. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Houston Enzymes make great products which help with many different types of food intolerances, yet don't contain the fillers or additives you mention above. Especially, they don't contain papain or bromelain (which are both high in salicylates/phenols).

    Trienza is a good one, and also No-Fenol is specifically for phenolic/salicylate issues. A google search will turn up a lot of information...
     
    oh_noes and leela like this.
  4. joshi81

    joshi81 Senior Member

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    There are also DIGEST GOLD by Enzymedica wich are high streght and with no filligs added. from what i know anyway digestive enzymes does not cause your organs not to produce enzymes anymore.
     
  5. Sparrow

    Sparrow Senior Member

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    Personally, I would give it a trial period and see how your body does without them.

    If you've been taking plant-based enzymes rather than pancreatic enzymes, I believe they shouldn't be affecting the levels of your body's own enzymes, so you should still have those full force. Even if you've been taking pancreatic enzymes, they may not have that much of an effect.

    I was on digestive enzymes for an extended period of time. I had to go off them cold turkey, and had some concerns like you're having. For what it's worth, my digestion transitioned just fine. As it turns out, the pills weren't actually doing that much for me anymore, apparently. I had to come off of them because it turns out they were behind my easy bruising and burst blood vessels, but even if that situation resolved, I wouldn't go back on them now. Apparently they weren't worth the money for me anymore.
     
    oh_noes likes this.
  6. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    I've been taking them for about 8 months too. Hope when I come off them one day my body produces on it's own. I think it probably will but I havent seen a definitive answer either way. I take them for leaky gut too, but also because of food intollerances related to that - it helps break the food down quickly so what passed your gut into your blood is small, not big food molecules that'll cause more of a reaction. Whether it works or not - I don't know.
    I would guess a gradual withdrawl would be best?
     
    oh_noes likes this.
  7. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    Here is a recipe that simultaneously helps with digestion, and encourages the body to be able to digest better on its own.
    I always feel better when I do it, but just have such a hard time preparing it every day, so eventually forget all about it :sluggish:
    Thanks for the reminder, I'm going to start up again now :nerd: It sounds too simple to be effective, but it really is!

    1 tsp fennel seed
    1 tsp dill seed
    1 tsp anise seed

    Boil in 3 cups of water, until it reduces to 1 1/2 cups of liquid. Strain out seeds and drink 1/2 c 3x/day before meals with 1tsp fresh lemon juice and 1/2 tsp of honey. You can cook this up the night before if that's easier for you. It's great to do this for 15 days and see if the digestive fire has been increased.
     
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  8. oh_noes

    oh_noes

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    Thanks everyone :) @leela, that sounds great. Does it help with lactose and fructose intolerance? Is the honey essential or just for taste? Due to my candida issues I have to avoid any sugars wherever possible.
     
  9. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    @oh_noes As far as I know severe intolerances still require avoidance, as this tea is for encouraging the digestive fire, so you don't want to put things in there that aggressively discourage it. I would say, avoid the foods that give the severest problems during the two weeks to see if there is any improvement after support has been in place. You can of course continue after the two weeks with the tea; that is just the suggested course to get things going.

    As far as the honey, you could leave it out. "Taste" is the first part of the digestive process, and this recipe takes that into account. I have used the 1/2 tsp in the recipe without a problem with candida issues--but that is up to you. I use manuka honey, since it is also anti-microbial, just for good measure :)
     
    oh_noes likes this.
  10. tyson oberle

    tyson oberle

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    How do you know that your enzymes caused "burst blood vessels", was it only because of your "easy bruising" or did you notice anything else?
     
  11. Sparrow

    Sparrow Senior Member

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    The connection was pretty definitive. I had extremely easy bruising, but didn't know what was causing it ( sometimes even pressing down too hard on a soft surface would leave a mark on me, and anything more than that would cause a really ugly yellow/blue patch to form, way out of proportion with what it should have been). I also had this thing where often when anything pressed against my skin too hard (lying on a bony body part too long, getting massage therapy, even sitting on a hard surface, etc.), it would leave a hickey-like patch of burst blood vessels in those spots. Clearly a sign that something was wrong, but I had no idea what it was for a long time. My doctors recognized it as burst blood vessels, but couldn't figure out what was causing it. I had assumed that both issues were probably just some weird complication of my ME, because I had been so supremely ill when they first developed and it certainly wouldn't have been the first weird thing to happen to me in the course of this illness. ...Of course, that's also when I started taking all of my supplements in a desperate effort to get some relief, but I didn't make that connection.

    Then after having this regularly for a couple of years already, I took a lactase enzyme, in an attempt to further help my digestive issues (I had eliminated dairy, and was beginning to trial adding it back in now and then), and a bit later I noticed that I had a huge patch of the burst blood vessels all up one hand and arm where I had been lying on it. Looked like I'd stuck my whole arm in a vaccuum. It was actually pretty scary. I didn't make the connection to the enzyme at first. Many days later, I took another lactase enzyme, and another unusually enormous patch of burst vessels showed up. At which point I realized the severe version was from the lactase. ...And that the regular version that I get all the time might be related to the other enzymes I take. I stopped taking the enzymes, and have never gotten a patch of burst blood vessels since (it used to happen quite often), and no longer have ugly bruises all over my legs, etc. Not once. So unless it was one heck of a coincidence, the enzymes were to blame.

    I'm not anti-supplement at all, nor am I anti-enzymes. But for me personally, they were definitely doing more harm than good.
     
  12. oh_noes

    oh_noes

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    @leela Thanks! Yeah, the old vagus nerve thing isn't it. I love manuka honey but I've heard conflicting reports about it with regards to candida, but I also love dill, fennel and anise anyway. Hmmm... well, I'll get to ordering those herbs and report back in a few weeks.

    @Sparrow That's interesting, because I'm permanently sporting several bruises somewhere on my body. I've always bruised easily, though. When I began the Yasko protocol seven months ago I started taking vitamin k-2 / menaquinone but it made no difference, perhaps because I began on the enzymes concurrently. I've not taken them for two days now, so hopefully in a few weeks we'll see.
     
  13. tyson oberle

    tyson oberle

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    did you also have dark circles under your eyes while taking digestive enzymes?
     
  14. Sparrow

    Sparrow Senior Member

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    I don't really recall either way. One of the ME specialists who examined me at the time did mention something about allergy-related shiners or something like that, so I suppose I might have. Why do you ask?
     
  15. tyson oberle

    tyson oberle

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    because from my research dark circles under the eyes are caused by leaking/broken capillaries, which are tiny blood vessels.
     

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