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Diet to decrease LPS

Discussion in 'Addressing Biotoxin, Chemical & Food Sensitivities' started by Waverunner, Mar 19, 2011.

  1. Waverunner

    Waverunner Senior Member

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    We have been discussing the importance of food several times here. Many people report that they feel better while fasting or restricting food. In my eyes this has to do with a decreased LPS and cytokine load. Since the intestines of many PWCs are highly damaged I would like to know what dietary restrictions would be recommended in order to heal the gut. I see several problems and have several questions

    1) Carbohydrates seem to be a problem because many pathogenic bacteria feed on them. Are complex carbs more problematic than monosaccharide carbs?

    "The complex carbohydrates are much more difficult to digest than simple carbohydrates because they must be split into simple sugars before entering the blood stream. This is a problem for a compromised digestive system. Carbohydrates not absorbed into the blood stream become available food for harmful gut bacteria. Only monosaccharide carbohydrates do not become food for the bacteria. The monosaccharide are the type easy to digest because once absorbed, they vanish into the bloodstream before the bacteria can access them."

    2) A low carb diet should be beneficial but is connected to several problems:

    a) Meat is hard to digest (at least red meat)
    b) Raw vegetables are hard to digest and are likely to increase intestinal damage
    c) Fermentation will be a problem
    d) Food intolerances are common for vegetables and other healthy food
    e) Many low carb foods seem to be very problematic e.g. cheese, eggs, milk

    So my main question would be: How does a PWC adapted diet look like?
    It does not contain many carbs but it has to be easy to digest as well and it has to take into account that food intolerances are a problem. Would it be worth a try to reduce mealtimes (e.g. lunch and dinner only) in order to put less strain on digestion and not eating too late to reduce fermentation over night?

    Here's an interesting excerpt about LPS, e.coli and autism:

    http://www.microbialinfluence.com/SCD.html

    "Children with autism have 10,000 times as many gram negative bacterias as typical children.

    Several studies have found out that compared to typical children, autistic children have more pathogenic intestinal flora. Several types of bacteria have been found to be abnormally abnormally elevated in the guts of ASD kids. Sophie Rosseneu and collaborators examined the GI bacteria in 69 children with regressive autism and constipation. They found the following result:
    95% of children with autism had 10,000x normal level of E. coli (Aerobic Gram Negative Bacteria) and 40% also had overgrowth of similar bacteria (Aerobic Gram Negative Bacteria).

    Aerobic Gram Negative Bacteria have a very potent endotoxin (LPS) that can cause damage to the gut, brain, thyroid, liver and other parts of the body.

    Explanation for this increase in bacteria

    It is astonishing that children with autism would have 10,000 times as many gram negative bacterias as typical children. We know from biology that the food supply is a very important determinant for the number of organisms that may survive. We also know that gram negative bacteria (the bacteria that contain LPS )are carbohydrate eaters. The majority of ASD children have carbohydrate malabsorption [2]; thus they have problems digesting starch and other complex carbohydrates because their guts are extremely damaged. Thus the gram negative bacteria will flourish, feasting on a multitude of available unabsorbed carbs and consequently emit the LPS which poisons the gut and brain.

    The complex carbohydrates are much more difficult to digest than simple carbohydrates because they must be split into simple sugars before entering the blood stream. This is a problem for a compromised digestive system. Carbohydrates not absorbed into the blood stream become available food for harmful gut bacteria. Only monosaccharide carbohydrates do not become food for the bacteria. The monosaccharide are the type easy to digest because once absorbed, they vanish into the bloodstream before the bacteria can access them."
     
  2. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi waverunner, generally I find your suggestions interesting, but three points do stand out as potentially misleading.

    1. Meat is slowly digested, but is not always a problem because of that. However, meat can provide sulphur based aminos in quantitity - we dont know what the impact of that will be, we need more research.

    2. Complex carbohydrates can be absorbed FASTER than many sugars - it depends on the carbohydrate. An index of this is the glycemic index. A starch that is pure glucose can be digested very fast in many people, then absorbed quickly. Basically, we have been told to eat low glycemic carbs, as the energy is released slowly. Some of this is due to sugars like fructose which generally have to be converted to other sugars for energy. Table sugar is half glucose and half fructose, so it can be slower to digest than many refined starches. It might be tempting to suggest we should be eating high glycemic carbs due to fast digestion times, but I think foods high in fructose might be better treated as fast absorption because the fructose lowers the glycemic index, but is absorbed into the blood stream quickly, if I recall correctly.

    3. Resistant starches are complicated starches that are not simply glucose molecules joined together. I have not properly researched this topic, so what I say could be very wrong - but worth thinking about because if it is correct then it is important to this argument. Resistant starches are not easily broken down by gut enzymes. They can pass through into the colon - but gut bacteria have different enzymes. Many might be able to break these starches down. I have heard of diets for IBS that focus on lowering resistant starches, avoiding foods that are high in them. This might be worth looking into.

    Bye
    Alex
     
  3. drex13

    drex13 Senior Member

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    What is LPS ? Whoops, never mind. I see it.
     
  4. Waverunner

    Waverunner Senior Member

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipopolysaccharide

    LPS are endotoxins and are found in the outer layer of gram negative bacteria and can provoke a very strong inflammatory immune response when released into the human body.
     
  5. Waverunner

    Waverunner Senior Member

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    Thanks Alex. So in your eyes, what would a good LPS reduction diet look like?
     
  6. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Hi Waverunner,

    This looks like an interesting idea .. I wonder how it fits in with what KDM is doing ?

    Here's an article about CFS and cytokines that I thought you might be interested in. FWIW .. I think it makes a lot of sense especially now that I've seen how food intolerances affect my symptoms.

    http://www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?id=3748&t=CFIDS_FM

    I was looking at this post today and had a few thoughts ... I'm a newbie at all of this so feel free to disagree. ; )

    We have bacteria in our mouths that any type of sugar will feed. So no carbohydrates are really good or bad ... BUT ... as a Kombucha grower and former kefir maker, I can tell you that the favorite food of many good bacteria is sugar. Any kind will do. So we'd be starving those too. Researchers aren't sure yet which bacteria are good or bad so how do we know which ones to feed ?

    Raw veggies are only a problem if you don't have the digestive enzymes to process these. Otherwise, they're a great source of nutrients.

    Most people are intolerant to the common foods that we've been eating for years ... gluten, soy, dairy, corn, eggs and chemicals. Most veggies are fine unless you have an oxalate problem.

    Dr. Myhill recommends the Paleo diet because of her PWCs food intolerances and chronic hypoglycemia. This diet is known to help regulate blood glucose levels because it eliminates processed foods, grains and legumes. Eating less often isn't an option for anyone with low blood glucose problems. Getting blood glucose under control is important for liver, adrenal, brain, kidneys and pancreas function ...

    The fermentation process in the gut is supposed to happen. It's how we get our energy, make certain nutrients, etc. It's only when we're feeding the bad guys that this become a problem .. but then again, who are the bad guys ? Are we going to learn next week that we need some of the bacteria we're trying to kill off because it keeps other bad bacteria in check ... just not in the quantity we have them ?

    "Children with autism have 10,000 times .... " I know this sounds impressive but bacteria will double in quantity every 15 minutes if properly nourished (food and warmth) so these numbers are meaningless. Anyone with the proper environment for this type of bacteria will have more than other people. And most of the autistic children I've read about are addicted to gluten, casein and carbs ...

    "Aerobic Gram Negative Bacteria have a very potent endotoxin (LPS) ... " I was curious about this .. how is this endotoxin any more potent than say endotoxins from other bacteria, yeast, parasites or biochemical processes that have gone awry because we're missing key enzymes ? And is it just aerobic gram negative ? Don't we have info on this site about how bad anaerobic bacteria are too ?

    If I'm remembering this correctly, some bacteria don't just feed off one source. If they're normally sugar eaters but can't find it then they'll eat what they find including proteins and aminos.

    Great discussion ... and personally, I think you're onto something here. I'm just not sure diet is the best way to handle this. I was thinking more along the lines of using something to quickly kill off the gram negative bacteria or bad bacteria. And quickly repopulate the gut with healthy bacteria ... Of course, this will only work if the gut has been repaired and we stop over feeding the bad guys ...

    tc ... xchocoholic
     
    NK17 likes this.
  7. Waverunner

    Waverunner Senior Member

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    Let's have a discussion. I read the article but it doesn't really say much about diet. Moreover I was living on no wheat/milk/peanut etc. for a long time but things got worse over time. Maybe because I did not reduce carb intake.


    Sorry but researchers do know which bacteria are good and which are bad. Just ask KDM about the Intestinal Dysfunction Assays he runs on every patient.

    This is not true either in my eyes. Starches are much harder to digest when raw. Moreover boiling or steaming supply more antioxidants to the human body than eating those vegetables raw. The main thing that gets detroyed by heat is Vitamin C but that can be easily balanced by eating fruit which contain lots of it. Raw vegs contain lots of insoluble fiber which is hard to digest as well. In the end we are all different but the majority of IBS patients avoid raw food.

    http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf072304b?prevSearch=boiling frying steaming&searchHistoryKey=

    The question is why these people have blood glucose problems. Could there be a connection to their diet? I don't know anyone with diabetes who hasn't benefited from a low carb diet to some degree. But then again diabetes is not CFS.

    While fermentation certainly is part of digestion it definitely is not supposed to happen in the small intestine or upper gut. You say that we don't know which bacteria are good and how many we need. Please tell me why KDM, Myhill and tons of other doctors run tests for exactly this problem? They test stool for which bacteria are present and in what quantities. According to you this wouldn't make any sense.

    In my eyes these numbers are not meaningless and this is what KDM and MyHill would tell you. You can check pubmed for studies about increased e.coli numbers. They are increased not only in autism but also in colitis and many other diseases. If someones gut bacteria do not only consist of 70-90% e.coli but 99.7% then this is a huge difference and I'm 100% sure that this is problematic. Why? Because the other bacteria certainly had a function and now they are missing. I would really like to know what e.coli feeds on and how people can decrease it.

    If you look at KDM he checks for LPS, treats people with antibiotics to kill the bacteria. In follow up tests the numbers of LPS should drop, so there clearly is a connection between bacteria and LPS.

    I agree that it would be good to have some more clarification about this.
     
  8. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Hi waverunner,

    I only a few minutes today but I want to discuss this further too. It's helping me get a better grip on bacteria ...

    I found this though ... it backs up what I'm saying about researchers not knowing enough about bacteria. I'd already heard this from another researcher and a doctor friend too though ...

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080603085914.htm

    I copied in the section on diet from the cytokine article. My purpose for telling you about this was to show you that cytokines have been considered before. And I liked the way this author presented the info ... IMHO, the bath therapy isn't realistic especially for PWCs who have little energy.

    http://www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?id=3748&t=CFIDS_FM

    He missed the boat on which foods to avoid too. GLUTEN isn't just found in wheat, it's in barley and rye and probably due to cross contamination, most oats have gluten in them ... And IMHO, he should've said casein not dairy ... it's the casein that most people are reacting too.

    Gotta go ... but looking forward to discussing this further ... xchocoholic
     
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  9. Waverunner

    Waverunner Senior Member

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    xchocoholic: Thanks for your links. Are there any special vegetables you would recommend?
     
  10. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi Waverunner, I am not sure, this is not a topic I have directly looked into. I would start by eliminating resistant starches to see if that made a difference. I would eat adequate protein - gut repair and immune capacity are linked to protein. I might be careful how much bran or other concentrated fiber I ate too - I think we might be better off with the fibre from fruit and vegetables, but again I have not researched this enough.

    I would be interested to know what KDM is recommending though.

    Bye
    Alex
     
  11. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

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    Hi Waverunner,

    I was googling trying to find out what environment gram negative bacteria thrive in and what they eat and while I haven't found that yet, I found this website with some very interesting info on bacteria. I found this article when I put bacteria into the search engine on this site but they have quite a few that I want to look at ...

    http://www.the-scientist.com/blog/display/54537/

    I'm out of time for now though ... I went to the beach yesterday and really need to do some cleaning today ... tc ... x
     
  12. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi X, Waverunner and all,

    Very interesting you started this thread Waverunner. I heard mentions of LPS off and on, but haven't paid too much attention to it until earlier this morning when I came across the same link you posted at the start of this thread...

    How I came across the link might provide some answers...I hope(!). I was googling 'salicylate intolerance' and came across a list of high-sal (high phenolic) foods, which I've seen before, but this one was on the 'pecanbread.com' site -- the US version of the "Specific Carbohydrate Diet". That led me to their yahoo group, which linked to the 'microbialinfluence.com' site, which now I can see does indeed have the "SCD" at the end of the URL that Waverunner posted.

    I've never paid too much attention to the SCD diet, because it's always seemed so complicated, in part because the original Gotschall site is based in Australia and features foods/brands that we don't have here in the US, (and perhaps other countries), it requires a lot of "new" ingredients, not to mention baking and cooking -- but also because it seems to contradict a lot of info re salicylates and autism. In other words, a lot of the foods that are SCD-approved are very high in salicylates, which can cause many of the exact same negative reactions that others who follow the SCD say occur from eating the "wrong" types of carbs.

    CONFUSING.

    But...after reading a little more, it's my understanding that the pro-SCD folks say that these salicylate (and other dietary issues) can resolve on the SCD, because if one is eating the recommended 'specific carbohydrates' and avoiding the ones that feed the "bad" bacteria/yeast, then intestinal permeability resolves, which improves both malabsorption and digestion, and finally the stress on the liver from these toxins is relieved so that the various detoxification pathways can work better.

    Does this make sense? As others have observed, I think there's a huge gut connection to CFS/ME, which some docs are finally picking up on. I think DeMelier said that 70% of his patients have some sort of food intolerance issue.

    d.
     
  13. Waverunner

    Waverunner Senior Member

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    OK, as far as I can tell for me, the SCD didn't work. I'm kinda hopeless right now. I have no idea what the hell is wrong with our digestion systems. There seems to be some basic mechanism that is completely messed up. I still wonder if it has to do with an overreacting sympathetic nervous system and if the body draws away all it's resources from digestion. This would cause all kind of different problems but we still would have to ask what causes the up-regulation. Does anyone know how to calm down the sympathetic nervous system or how to drive up the parasympathetic nervous system?
     
  14. stevesayshi

    stevesayshi

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    This is a long dead thread, but funny you should mention that - fasting is one way to increase parasympathetic activity - unless you're obese in which case it had the opposite effect.
     

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