Did the Brodie polio vaccine of the early '30s create ME?

[duncan]

That is one way to look at this, Kina. Not mine, except her helping bring ME into the limelight. So we can kindly differ on this.

I only brought bankruptcy into this because of the Cha-ching thing. I agree it has no relevance to the voracity of research, unless there is a conflict of interest demonstrated.

 

[Countrygirl]

I don't think this is correct but will have to do some further investigation.

It seems I remember Mikvist as blaming Silverman for her results. There were lots of explanations for the difference in controls in the original experiment.

Why is she contining to hold on to the retrovirus theory which would have been found by now? Is she trying to save face?

The fact that she has aligned herself with less than reputable groups even before the results were replicated does not show her in the best light. As one who admired her, even if only for a brief period of time, I have found her acting less and less like a true scientist which is disappointing.

By doing this, IMHO, it only detracts from other research that has more plausability for finding a cause as well as treatments for us.

Barb

Have you been in regular direct contact with her, Barb, so she can she explain it to you? The book Plague makes it clear too. The RVs she and the others found have not been sought, only the contaminant which won't be found of course. If the governments had to admit that the cancer and vaccine research released a bunch of airborne and infectious RVs on the world it would have catastrophic results, surely? Remember what Dr Coffin said when he witnessed what had been found? The book may be a good place to start if anyone is interested as there is so much misinformation circulating and then being repeated as fact.

 

[Countrygirl]

Umm, wasn't the XRMV in ME patients samples found to be an example of cross-contamination? Also, the author doesn't suggest how exposure to a discontinued vaccine would cause ME to become 'wild.'

I don't know much about the XMRV area, so you might be right, but you didn't respond to my second point, Countrygirl.

Oh wow! I have just tried the multi quote thingy and it works!!

@msf, I'm sorry for not responding to your second question. Actually, I have been mostly hunkered down for the last couple of days with a horrid exacerbation of Meniere's as well as ME(tried to paint a little of the garden fence the day before...........BIG mistake! ) and had only read some short posts here and then my computer failed to work. I may completely disappear again as it seems to be seriously ill with nasty messages saying the (hard) disk is corrupted. A computer geek has told me it is in a terminal condition although it is a mere youngster at only two years old............the computer that is, not the computer geek! Weep!

I think you are asking how the disease could spread from people who became sick as a result of vaccination. Do you remember that the gammas were found to be airborne and can live (I am relying on memory here) for up to 48 hours on surfaces? This might explain why a number of people that I know, including me, have found that those who share a house with us, even if unrelated, develop the disease also. (Perhaps I have misinterpreted your question? Apologies if I have)

As an aside, I know that dogs also develop an ME-type illness, especially immediately following their third booster. My own dog did and the vet who helped care for her diagnosed it as ME. Another family dog developed leukaemia following her's and the vet who said he had witnessed this a number of times used her case to write a paper that was published in a scientific journal. Leukaemia is also known to be associated with a retroviral infection.................especially Hairy Cell with HTLV II, of course.) have read articles in the past (sorry I have no links on hand) that explain that veterinary vaccines have far less rigorous controls than human and that a number of retroviral infections have been transmitted to animals via that route. Why shouldn't this also be a likely scenario for humans too?

I have just read Research First's comprehensive's post and that sounds to accord with the information given to me personally by the scientist involved.

 

[Research 1st]

If I remember correctly, I think 'ME' used to be known as Post Polio Syndrome or something similar. I can't recall the name exactly.

 

[Hell...Hath...No...Fury..]

If I remember correctly, I think 'ME' used to be known as Post Polio Syndrome or something similar. I can't recall the name exactly.

Yes and atypical polio and non paralytic polio. It was said that once the number of polio cases reached 25 per year in the 50's thanks to the vaccine eradicating it, it was then that ME exploded into the population.

Something to do with getting rid of the polio virus left a vacuum that was filled with other enterovirus, 72 variants i think it was. producing symptoms of ME/ polio or post polio syndrome.

'In 1990 Dr. Dowsett looked for antibodies to non-polio enterovirus in her CFS/ME patients. Fifty percent had antibodies to the first non-polio enterovirus ever discovered -- the Coxsackie B virus -- named after Coxsackie, New York, the town where it was found to have paralyzed children in 1948'

When i was 8 i caught a strange virus that pretty much paralysed me down one side of my body for a week. When i walked my leg dragged behind me. We were on holiday at the time so it was never properly looked into as i was almost recovered when we got back home.

My auntie, who had polio as a child said it sounded similar and she mentioned once or twice that the ME at age 20 looked like post polio syndrome after i became paralysed. Its something i keep meaning to look into properly then keep forgetting :thumbdown:

 

[alex3619]

Autism and me/seid have been around much earlier than this author proposes. They just had different labels. Many with autism were said to be retarted. People with me/cfs were diagnosed with psychiatric conditions such as neurasthenia or a histrionic personality Unfortunately, we still see the psychiatric lable being used today.

I think this is right, but the 1934 cluster is the first documented large cluster. It was extensively documented as well.

I recall reading somewhere that there were a small number of cases in LA about 1932. So even there it predated 1934. What happened in 1934 was it coincided with a polio outbreak.

Which raises the question - does ME require TWO different things to happen? I first proposed this maybe a decade ago, calling it the two hit hypothesis. Of course its not really limited to just two hits.

For example, what if the Lake Tahoe outbreak was due to both mold and an enterovirus in combination?

An early vaccine trial, at a site with so much other viral and disease research and animal testing, might have been a contaminated vaccine. Hence it set the stage for an epidemic.

Another thing about the two hit hypothesis, which I started arguing in about 2009, is that they might not have to be at the same time, but might be consecutive. Something/s set you up, then something knocks you down.

 

[alex3619]

If I remember correctly, I think 'ME' used to be known as Post Polio Syndrome or something similar. I can't recall the name exactly.

Yes, and post polio syndrome is almost identical in symptoms and prognosis to what we see in ME today. The polio virus is an enterovirus, and we only got rid of that specific enterovirus. In animal models at least, some other enteroviruses have been shown to cause a polio-like problem.

Enteroviruses are endemic to the world population, and linked to gut infections.

 

[msf]

I think clusters vs single cases is most likely due to the symptoms of ME being caused by two or more pathogens with differing modes of transmission. I found one reference to Yersinia causing the 1985 outbreak. Enteroviruses have been implicated in other outbreaks as mentioned above. The single cases are probably caused by these pathogens plus Lyme and other TBIs.

 

[wastwater]

I still think simian cytomegalovirus is worth looking into
http://www.researchgate.net/profile...homologues/links/00b7d5388d18a448ee000000.pdf

 

[picante]

From an interview with Mikovits: http://www.prohealth.com/me-cfs/library/showarticle.cfm?libid=18960

How many people did we save by learning that XMRV could be aerosolized and spread to immune-compromised individuals or lab workers? We may have avoided something that could have infected everyone, because Silverman was sending XMRV all over the world.

But, exposing Silverman's XMRV as a lab artifact should not have ended the research. The work Frank Ruscetti and I did to find the epitope that the antibody recognizes in humans should have been completed. Currently 6% of the population carries an antibody that recognizes a gammaretrovirus envelope protein. Six percent is 20 million Americans!

Last year, Gary Owens published a research paper that showed the envelope protein of MLVs alone could cause vascular leak and aggressive tumors. He had previously published data identifying XMRV-2, now called B4RV, on November 10, 2009. That was only one month after our paper was published. We worked with Gary and found those sequences and proteins in some of our original patient samples. The virus Gary Owens found causes the very things I saw in Dan Peterson's patients and which are found in so many of the complex chronic diseases that affect our population today. So why was this work suppressed for three years, and why is it being downplayed now? How many new retroviruses have we created through all the mouse research, the vaccine research, gene therapy research? More importantly, how many new diseases have we created?

 

[barbc56]

@picante wrote:

Last year, Gary Owens published a research paper that showed the envelope protein of MLVs alone could cause vascular leak and aggressive tumors

.
While I don't fully understand the research explained above, the journal Bio Med Central is what is called a predatory journey.

This brings into question the validity of the study.

https://scholarlyoa.com/2014/09/11/new-predatory-publisher-copies-look-and-feel-of-biomed-central/

https://scholarlyoa.com/2013/11/12/...-journal-remain-unresolved-after-three-years/

https://scholarlyoa.com/2016/01/07/biomed-central-new-website-same-old-low-quality/

 

[picante]

Your first link says that the "BioMed Research" site is copying the look of the "BioMed Central" site. And you're saying the one being copied is predatory???? Maybe you could explain, 'cuz I'm definitely not understanding your comment.

How does BioMed Central work? Did it simply put the article from Retrovirology online? Or does it own Retrovirology? So if BioMed Central charges a fee while providing no editorial services, they're taking advantage of the authors. Is that what you're saying?

Is it a study that went through a review process? That would be the main status-quo indicator of "validity", wouldn't it?

There are many things that call into question the validity of most studies. Take PACE, for example. Most medical studies are agenda-driven and industry-driven. It's like whacking your way through the wilderness trying to figure out whose research is solid and who is even asking the right questions to begin with.

 

[barbc56]

@picante

Yes, the researchers pay to have their study published. One distinguishing characteristic of predatory journals is that they spam a large number of researchers and academic professionals whether in the field of the study or not, to find peer reviewers. It's difficult finding peer reviewers through legtimate channels because these journals have a reputation for publishing sub par science. New researchers, especially in developing countries where science may not be quite as sophisticated are often dupped as they want to publish and the publishers promote these journals as having the same quality as the more recognized journals.

BioMed Central is the publisher of several journals one of which is is Retrovirology. The links show that there have been continual problems and not just one breach of ethics. The same can be said for other journals like this.

Research in legitimate journals often have problems and flaws are missed even with the usual controls and standards for publication. So if a journal lowers the standards for publication it's even more likely that the journal contains studies that have flaws, sloppy study design as well as a greater likelihood for conflict of interests.

The articles I posted pretty much answer the questions you are asking. You may have missed the article that defines predatory journals as the link is embedded while the rest of the citations aren't.

The business model for these predatory journals usually have questionable ethics and shoddy science.


ETA I neglected to say that I am speaking of these type of journals in general and not this study in particular as I don't really understand it. I just found it strange that Mikovitz points to and worked with someone who published in such a journal.

 

[Thomas]

Not sure if I posted this elsewhere before but attached is a manuscript of Byron Hyde's most recent lecture in Amsterdam in September of 2015.
It contains much information that is being discussed here, minus the detour of the xmrv/Mikovits conspiracy.

 

[Countrygirl]

@Thomas That is a fascinating article and it contains information that I haven't read elsewhere.Thank you for posting, I shall keep it for reference.

 

[Thomas]

@Thomas That is a fascinating article and it contains information that I haven't read elsewhere.Thank you for posting, I shall keep it for reference.

You're welcome

 

[Forbin]

An interesting fact about the 1934 outbreak at Los Angeles Country General Hospital is that the outbreak began within weeks of the brand new hospital's opening in April 1934. This was also at the same time that the hospital began receiving its first polio cases.

FWIW, LA County General was opened during the Great Depression and was specifically dedicated to serving the "indigent." The president of the hospital's medical advisory board proclaimed, "this building seals a pledge from us that the unfortunate sick are our heritage. We dedicate it to them and guard the doors against the entrance of the unworthy."

It was also where the county sent ALL of its polio cases, regardless of "worthiness." As I recall, at least one movie star wound up there with polio.

The outbreaks in institutional settings - hospitals, nursing homes, military bases, isolated communities - might suggest contagion, but it also might suggest a common environmental exposure to things like food or toxic chemicals.

Personally, I don't think ME/CFS is triggered by any one particular "bug" or toxin (although some pre-existing pathogen may be required). The trigger just seems to be any exposure that provokes an immune response strong enough, or long-lasting enough, to initiate some other self-perpetuating mechanism, perhaps by creating some kind of imbalance in the microbiome and/or by triggering some kind autoimmunity.

[BTW, the iconic hospital photo used in the US soap opera "General Hospital" was, in fact, LA County General.]

 

[barbc56]

Fascinating articles about the outbreak in Los Angeles. I'm a bit confused as the symptoms seem a bit different than me/cfs. I think there's a good chance I missed something. See below. Maybe I need to investigate some other resources? Suggestions are welcome.

Unfortunately, I had to delete the PDF after one read through, as I kept getting error messages that it had too much data for the tablet, and the tablet started doing some very strange things. So I am going by memory here.

The initial symptoms did seem similar to me/cfs but then the article describes other neurological symptoms such as muscle spasms, jerking of limbs and lesions on the brain. While some of these are seen with me/cfs, it seemed the percentage of those affected was higher than in the me/cfs population.

The biggie was that all the patients were in complete remission after several years.

I thought there were quite a few refreshing insights in the paper. Certainly more insightful than a lot of what we hear and read today. For example the paper answers the critics who said the outbreak was hysteria because of certain symptoms and the paper nicely backs up the author's assertion that this was a very real physical illness and not hysteria. They pointed out that the symptons said to be hysteria are also seen with neurological diseases.They even gave the patients a questionaire to weed out any that had histrionic personalities and they weren't found. The article also states any depression/mental distress seen in the patients was a result of the illness.

Wow!

 

[Forbin]

For anyone who's interested, the full, 90 page, 1938 report on the 1934 LA County Hospital outbreak can be found here:

http://phoenixrising.me/wp-content/uploads/LA-outbreak.pdf

 

[Chrisb]

It would be interesting to know which patients were party to the compensation claims. It appears that only about half of the patients (100 out of 196) whose cases are covered by the report received "prophylactic serum". Was the compensation paid only to those who had received the serum, or would it have been paid more generally to ensure that gagging clauses could be applied? If compensation had been paid to some but not others it is hard to imagine that news would not have leaked out.

As the cases appear to show no great difference between those who received serum and those who did not it might be thought that there would have been difficulty in establishing causation.

In Dr Hyde's lecture as posted above by @Thomas it is said that:

"The County of Los Angeles Authorities and the insurance industry did their best to prevent any settlement of the claim for damages. However by Gillam removing certain unknown items from the report, and by threatening to go public if the report was not published, it was eventually published in 1938 in its revised form..... "

It is rather disconcerting to hear that his seemingly official report does not necessarily contain everything that the person whose name it bears wished to report, and that it appears to have undergone an early form of "Maxwellisation"-a term used in England to describe the process whereby a draft of an official report is submitted to various parties, apparently to enable them to indefinitely delay, alter and entirely discredit the outcome. One suspects that it must have been such a process which caused the omission of information necessary to make sense of it all. The report raises as many questions as it provides answers, in particular who might have authorised the alleged settlement and why?







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