Lipkin's Monster ME/CFS Study: Microbes, Immunity & Big Data
The Microbe Discovery Project outlines an ambitious new study by top researchers that has collected patient samples, but needs desperately funds to complete the work.
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Did the Brodie polio vaccine of the early '30s create ME?

Discussion in 'Other Health News and Research' started by Countrygirl, May 12, 2015.

  1. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl ME is not MUS

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    http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/plague-vaccine-lies-have-been-told-beginning?page=2

    Read the rest of the article by Kent Heckenlively here.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 13, 2015
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  2. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    The LA outbreak discussion has come up several times. I think more was going on there than just simple vaccination trials, including research on mystery diseases with monkey test subjects. Who knows what cross contamination might have occurred?
     
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  3. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1

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    that sounds very interesting.

    We also shouldn't forget the ME outbreak at The Royal Free Hospital in 1955, England which affected 292 members of staff.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2425309/pdf/postmedj00263-0019.pdf .. it went through the doctors and nurses at the hospital but for some reason the patients there didn't get sick with it (umm how many reasons could there be for sick vulnerable patients not catching something going around?). Vaccination of the medical workers at that hospital would explain why it affected the health workers and not the patients.

    Then we also have those secret ME/CFS files which have been sealed till after we will be all dead.

    Vaccinations are very important to governments even if some people are badly affected by them.

    There may be very good reasons why governments have played down our illness, refused to find much serious research etc....could there be things to hide? Maybe the vaccinations weakened their systems which then allowed something not usually harmful to take hold or made them susceptable in another way?
     
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  4. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    Autism and me/seid have been around much earlier than this author proposes. They just had different labels. Many with autism were said to be retarted. People with me/cfs were diagnosed with psychiatric conditions such as neurasthenia or a histrionic personality Unfortunately, we still see the psychiatric lable being used today.

    Spurious correlations and conspiracy theories, in my opinion, do not lead to the most credible analysis of events. This author is notorious for using these types of logical fallacies to make a point.

    Barb
     
  5. Valentijn

    Valentijn The Diabolic Logic

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    I also have to wonder how the experimental polio vaccine theory would fit with sporadic cases. Obviously none of us have had that vaccine, and conversely I have never seen any mention of the illness in the LA outbreak spreading beyond those who were vaccinated.

    So while it is plausible that the vaccine was an especially potent trigger for ME/SEID, I think it's extremely unlikely that it created ME/SEID.
     
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  6. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Umm, wasn't the XRMV in ME patients samples found to be an example of cross-contamination? Also, the author doesn't suggest how exposure to a discontinued vaccine would cause ME to become 'wild.'
     
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  7. LivingwithFibro

    LivingwithFibro Senior Member

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    I've had been vaccinated for polio twice as a precaution... strangely enough it was after this incident that my health condition exacerbated.

    Or perhaps I was weak from birth and it showed up after the vaccine....

    Not to mention that the country in which I was vaccinated has reported cases of polio vaccines being mingled with, as in mixing things into the vaccine to produce more....
     
  8. I've read of stuff about how they did vaccine testing in the Belgian Congo in the 30s
    now why would they do testing there?
    because it was the most heinous regime in the world, native people were less than animals to their rulers
    so testing could be done there and no one cared about the victims
    and it has been linked ot why HIV became a problem, using unsterilized needles etc
     
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  9. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl ME is not MUS

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    No, although this is a common miscomprehension. XMRV was a contaminant in Dr Silverman's lab that he sequenced by mistake. It was not found in ME patients and was not in Ruscetti's or Mikovit's lab.It was a family of murine gamma retroviruses , not the XMRV contaminant, that was found in ME patients and between 3-6% in controls. Lo and Alter as well as German scientists found the same family of retroviruses in patients.
     
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  10. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    I don't think this is correct but will have to do some further investigation.

    It seems I remember Mikvist as blaming Silverman for her results. There were lots of explanations for the difference in controls in the original experiment.

    Why is she contining to hold on to the retrovirus theory which would have been found by now? Is she trying to save face?

    The fact that she has aligned herself with less than reputable groups even before the results were replicated does not show her in the best light. As one who admired her, even if only for a brief period of time, I have found her acting less and less like a true scientist which is disappointing.

    By doing this, IMHO, it only detracts from other research that has more plausability for finding a cause as well as treatments for us.

    Barb
     
  11. Research 1st

    Research 1st Severe ME, POTS & MCAS.

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    Frustratingly, the science over non XMRV was never answered, even if the approved explanation pretended it was. No informed individual believes XMRV exists (as simple VP62), as there is no evidence, there is however, evidence of cousins of XMRV existing in cells taken out of patients. The key word, is patients. What the CDC calls a patient, and what Lipkin and Hornig call a patient, is not the same as what people who know what severe ME does, call a patient.

    Severe ME created people with cytokines coming out of their ears, decades later (the exact opposite of what Lipkin & Hornig found in people with a chronic fatigue state, they call a CFS). ME isn't a chronic fatigue state and the people with severe ME couldn't walk to the bathroom, never mind attend an outpatients clinic for a blood draw. Oddly, these people are never studied.

    The much lauded 'end of retrovirus link to CFS', the Lipkin study did not use CCC CFS, it used an altered version created especially for the final nail in the coffin study. Unfortunately, this meant it wasn't a replication study. Also the patients studied, weren't those from the original study. As 'CFS' is massively heterogeneous, who becomes a patient, is then pot luck and the science is muddled. Therefore, as long as one keeps to pathetic criteria, and people who are diagnosed (using no tests), there is no proof anyone has a 'CFS', and thus findings will always be all over the place, non consistent, and fail totally to prove any association to anything. Thus the myth of psychiatry, is maintained, forever. Until people start looking at bugs in the blood and tissue...

    Governments have far much to lose in annoying massive pharmaceutical companies who, by name, are historically linked to various bits and bobs they wished they weren't!

    Long term patients with ruined lives are intelligent enough to see this, know this, and accept that if 'CFS' blood infects donor blood (culture) to produce genes associated to MRV's, then your body, has 'something' in it, that is genetically associated to MRV's that shouldn't be there. This is what happened at the WPI. The Blood Working Group 'the blood is safe' study, did not follow the multiple methods of 'XMRV' detection, so that was a non starter. If patients know this, I wonder why people with Phd's don't? Of course they do, hence Mikovits rightly complains, as the situation stinks.

    The bottom line is:

    *Patients with a diagnosis of CFS and the public, had unexplained antibodies to SFFV in the Lipkin study, years after the discredited Science paper of 2009. This remains unexplained. We don't know if the 'patients' had genuine ME, or the symptoms of severe ME. If they had, such as those who visited the WPI, the results may have been far higher than those in the general public. (Look at the exclusion critiera for the Lipkin paper, most of the conditions listed are what people with genuine severe ME have). Who benefits from this? Science? No. If AIDS was reduced to Chronic Fatigue + a few symptoms, then 'proving' HIV is associated to AIDS would never work, because many other people with Chronic Fatigue + a few symptoms, would never be HIV positive at all. HIV could thus be de-associate to AIDS, by claims of a maverick scientist... Sound familiar? Elaine DeFreitas might agree too.

    *SFFV was described in the original 2009 paper (separate from XMRV a misnomer), but conveniently forgotten about by the Govt cronies out to get Mikovits for exposing the whole rotten situation of past mistakes made. There doesn't have to be a huge conspiracy, it can just be a mistake. People don't like admitting to mistakes, if the mistake is so vast, is simply won't be fairly researched. Some put a lot of play on the fact XMRV was fairly researched at huge expense, (it was) but then curiously forget, the CFS patients never has XMRV in the first place, certainly not the variants looked at, and definitely not SIlverman's Synthetic VP62 he created in his lab (Not Mikovits). Thus, XMRV never existed in CFS. Thus the potential retrovirus in ME CFS, never has been thoroughly researched. That is Mikovits's beef.

    *SFFV or its mutated children, if proven, may have come from vaccine contamination, by a genuine mistake by labs many decades ago, such as from cancer research and xenografting tissue using mouse retroviruses.


    It looks like, SFFV will never be investigated in any human disease, because there is the potential for the red faced cronies in charge to then have evidence against them of covering up information of certain parties accidentally contaminating tens of millions of people. Of these people, an unknown percentage may be dead, or severely ill. The ones alive will need care. No one is paying for that, yet bringing up the 'XMRV is dead' line is pointless.

    XMRV never existed in a CFS human, as explained, XMRV was created by Bob Silverman in his lab and tied to Prostate Cancer. What we also don't know is what the relatives of gamma retroviruses are doing in patient 'CFS' cultures, and why patients make antibodies to retroviral cousins of mouseviruses used in cancer research, as do the general public. That is the scary part....

    What we do know, is the Americans are testing lab workers for 'XMRV' and close contacts, despite telling the public it doesn't exist in the public. In other words, these lab workers will be studied over their life times to see if their inhaled retroviruses are passed on to others, and then others, and then others. I would imagine the results will remain classified.

    Many believe it's best not to tell the public, and put their chronic diseases down to 'autoimmunity' (no cause needed), cancer (no cause needed), or just mental health problems (blame shifted from state to victim). Other believe just deny outright - using psychiatry. Hence 'Chronic Lyme' is contest as a 'belief', despite people dead from its affects, there's a logic fail.
    Borrelia is found in patients hearts, who die from cardiomyopathy, and found in patients brains, at a massively increased rate, who die from dementia. Still, the Govt insist, no Borrelia is never chronic. :whistle:

    So Polio, or Polio and BW experiments we know took place back then. Well If these infected kids were around 10 yrs of age in the 1950's, they would now be around 70+ years old, which is about the right age for their children to be in their 40's+50's with severe ME, meaning another 10 years or CBT/GE and most of the infected will be deceased from uncontrolled disease. If the victim is deceased, there is no court case, because the body will not be in any state to be autopsied once the truth comes out. Those in charge know this. 'CFS' is just a time wasting exercise, as is SEID, as is ME/CFS. Names mean nothing in microbiology without evidence of infection.

    If you think about it, the kids of the moms in the 50's to 70's who all got sick in the 1980's and 1990's and never recovered, did this just in time for ME to become 'CFS' to be branded onto them as their fault, their minds fault. A most curious chance finding if there ever was....

    Thus logically speaking, that far from a deranged Polio Vaccine causing ME outright, 'it' may well combine with other pathogens that America and its allies designed in it's years of paranoia against communism (Duck and Cover). It would seem logical these autoimmunity provoking pathogens have other methods of passage into humans that are most worrying - such as Lyme ticks and other insects, which would also link, potentially, to people's pets.

    A positive outcome of all this, is no matter which side you agree with, it's always good to think deeply, and never accept what you are told on face value by continued appeals to authority, but instead, to trace the steps back in history. That may, or may not involve deranged polio vaccines that were injurious to those unfortunate to have been stuck with a needle, or have some form of contact (blood transfusion included) with doctors and nurses of the day, who had no idea what was going on, and who unwittingly passed it on.

    Rather tragically, all these years later, the public are still mushrooms: kept in the dark and fed on BS. This will never change, and is just part of the landscape of being a tax payer, or someone crippled by an infection that makes you unable to work for life until you die, due to the label of CFS being stamped in your medical file.

    That would be a great way to contain people, this CFS idea. Patients would be spend their life fighting for recognition until they're in their 60's and then expire. Who would benefit from that I wonder.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2015
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  12. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    This is speculation. Nothing wrong with that, but there could also be other explanations for this. The fact remains that we just don't know.
    .
    Agreed, and that's why most scientists are believing otherwise.

    Just because someone ends up with the same conclusion, in this case the medical science, it doesn’t mean they aren't thinking critically.

    Anything is possible but you have to take into account plausability. We don't know what the subgroups are, but in this case, you would think with this diversty something would pop up to indicate a retrovirus.

    We could debate this ad nauseum, but for me, most of the above involves proving a negative. So I will defer to others who want to continue.

    Barb
     
  13. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    I read the entire article, and thought the author effectively presented a number of interesting points in a rather poignant manner. -- I have little doubt vaccinations played a significant role in my own health issues. From the large number of posts on this board, they appear to have played a large role for many others with ME/CFS.

    I was struck by the following paragraph. I think it illustrates very well the problem of the enormous complexity associated with developing vaccinations. There are literally an infinite number of variables to consider when formulating them, and short- and long-term consequences will likely never be fully known--especially since so called true scientists often do whatever they can to obscure the truth.

    In 1953 Dr. G. Stuart of the World Health organization... wrote: "[T]wo main objections to this vaccine have been voiced, because of the possibility that: (i) the mouse brains employed in its preparation may be contaminated with a virus pathogenic for man although latent in mice . . . or may be the cause of a demyelinating encephalomyelitis; (ii) the use, as antigen, or a virus with enhanced neurotropic properties may be followed by serious reactions involving the central nervous system." My co-author, would add a third concern, namely that a mouse virus could recombine with a human virus and evolve into something very dangerous.
     
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  14. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    I don't know much about the XMRV area, so you might be right, but you didn't respond to my second point, Countrygirl.
     
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  15. Ecoclimber

    Ecoclimber Senior Member

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    @Research1st
    @Countrygirl

    Ok, get this straight xmrv is a contaminant in whatever form VP62, VP35, VP45 etc. It never existed in the wild. Mikovits could not find any xmrv in her group under blinded conditions of the Blood Products Advisory Committee. When Mikovits couldn't find xmrv in her own patients she took the sample that were originally labled xmrv and used the same sample using epigenetic modifier, they could induce Gag expression and relabled it calling it a gammaretrovirus at an Ottawa conference.

    XMRV and chronic fatigue syndrome: For your enjoyment– A magic trick.

    At NO time has Mikovits posted any HGRV sequences to the GenBank! NADA Mikovit's claim is all a bunch of lies.

    There is big money - I mean hundreds of millions of dollars - in woo-woo quackery field built on conspiracy theories and fear for people who are scientifically illiterate or refused to believe the truth based on their preconceived prejudices. Mikovits went from saint to victim playing the card well $Cha-Ching.
     
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  16. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

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    There is tons of evidence, and many documented instances of retroviral contamination of vaccines (including the MMR with avian retrovirus) and other biological products, coming from cell lines used in their production.

    Retrovial contamination of vaccines has been known to WHO and CDC for decades. They have put lots of effort into playing down the significance of this and potential to harm, potential to recombine with and reactivate HERVs etc.

    When it comes to the holy cow of vaccines precautionary principles of 'unknown territory' do not apply.

    Check these out http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ines-used-for-production-of-biologicals.2880/
     
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  17. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

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    That argument not disprove vaccines as causing/triggering autism either, since vaccines have been used much earlier than the author proposes autism started.

    In fact warnings about vaccines possibly causing/triggering neurological disorders goes back well over hundred years.

    There were letters published in medical journals 19th century by clinicians observing neurological and behavioural deterioration in patients following vaccinations. That doesn't prove anything wrt autism, but to say that 'autism was around before mass vaccinations' does not DISPROVE anything either. Red herring.

    Besides it is well known that viral /bacterial insults (aka immune stressors) can trigger autism in humans and 'neurodevelopmental and behavioural abnormalities' in animals. Of course we don't let such simple logic and empirical observations of thousands stand in the way of mighty statistics or the greater good, god forbid ;-)
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2015
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  18. duncan

    duncan Senior Member

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    Ecoclimber, you and I have vastly different remembrances of those days.

    I tend to be wary of individuals who play with words like quackery and conspiracy theories. This is the same dialect spoken by IDSA hardliners when trying to dispute indisputable evidence about Borrelial persistence post-treatment.

    "Cha-Ching" hardly seems appropriate considering Mikovits had to file for bankruptcy protection, if I am not mistaken. Even if I do not recall that correctly, her advocacy for this community - and the hard times she suffered through as part of those frenzied days - should not be forgotten or discounted.
     
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  19. Kina

    Kina Admin Support Staff

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    Have you read Kent Heckenlively's account of what Mikovits went through in the book "Plague" because the book is full of Conspiracy theories. The book also recounts what she went through for HER own point of view and includes no other accounts from other researchers.

    As far as bankruptcy goes -- where is she getting the money for her current lawsuits that must be costing ++++ dollars. Whether or not a researcher goes into bankruptcy has nothing to do with the quality of their research. After reading the book and following her actions via the internet, I see many many problems. What we must remember is that Mikovits helped show what ME is not associated with.

    She helped rule out things. We should be thankful to her for bringing ME into the limelight.
     
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  20. JPV

    JPV ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs

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    I think the implication is that other vaccines, not just the one mentioned, may also be capable of causing similar unintended "side effects". There's certainly many different sub groups that we all fall into, so this may account for the wide variety of symptoms and treatment responses. God knows that probably every single one of us has been subjected to any number of different vaccines throughout our lifetimes.
     
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