Did I just slam the door on a PEM episode?!

[Hanna]

What would be a fair Ubiquinol equivalent (in mg) of a 1800 mg ubiquinone dose ?
I have been taking for years 100-200 mg ubiquinol (Kaneka) daily, and so far havn't noticed anything positive. I am willing to try a bigger dose and have the ubiquinol form only 'in stock'
thanks

 

[SOC]

I read your first post this morning and decided to try increasing my coq10 (ubiquinol) dosage from 100mg twice daily to I think 6 or 7 times total today.
I did notice I had more energy and less pain at work, maybe even the same amount of pain at the end of the day but it didn't fatigue me like it usually does.

For me I had found last year that coq10 and riboflaving together improved pain and fatigue noticeably.
I had settled on 200mg per day after starting on other amino acids and methylations supplements but have recently hit a plateau on improvments.
I am wondering if the mito and methylation supplements used up the coq10 levels I had built up earlier.

Have you had gastro issues taking that many capsules a day?
Plus I'm sure its expensive lol

I take 600 mg capsules, so that's only 3 per day.

The high dose doesn't give either of us gastro issues, but we don't have GI problems with ME, which may help in that situation.

Yes, it is expensive!

 

[SOC]

What would be a fair Ubiquinol equivalent (in mg) of a 1800 mg ubiquinone dose ?
I have been taking for years 100-200 mg ubiquinol (Kaneka) daily, and so far havn't noticed anything positive. I am willing to try a bigger dose and have the ubiquinol form only 'in stock'
thanks

600 mg ubiqinol is supposed to be equivalent to 1800 mg ubiquinone

 

[SDSue]

Speaking of all things mitochondrial, this is my formulation from a mito “specialist”. I took it for about a year. Thinking back, I was more functional then in that I could go for small walks. I stopped it because I wasn’t sure it was helping and the cost (with insurance) formulated at pharmacy was near $100 a month.

MIght be time to dust it off again. This time, I’ll formulate myself to be sure I get top ingredients. In particular,

*CoQ 10 - Kaneka as per @SOC here. Half ubiquinone and half ubiquinol?

*Riboflavin - Coenzymated flavin mono nucleotide (FMN) as per @ahmo Blog here. Ahmo, do you know how the FMN B2 compares to regular B2 when dosing? The FMN comes in 18 mg tablets, whereas the regular comes in 100 mg. Are they equivalent?

L-carnitine - anybody have info on brands?

Alpha-lipoic - anybody have info on brands?

 

[SOC]

Speaking of all things mitochondrial, this is my formulation from a mito “specialist”. I took it for about a year. Thinking back, I was more functional then in that I could go for small walks. I stopped it because I wasn’t sure it was helping and the cost (with insurance) formulated at pharmacy was near $100 a month.

MIght be time to dust it off again. This time, I’ll formulate myself to be sure I get top ingredients. In particular,

*CoQ 10 - Kaneka as per @SOC here. Half ubiquinone and half ubiquinol?

*Riboflavin - Coenzymated flavin mono nucleotide (FMN) as per @ahmo Blog here. Ahmo, do you know how the FMN B2 compares to regular B2 when dosing? The FMN comes in 18 mg tablets, whereas the regular comes in 100 mg. Are they equivalent?

L-carnitine - anybody have info on brands?

Alpha-lipoic - anybody have info on brands?



View attachment 11366

Thanks for that! I'll have to look into the Riboflavin. I have a bottle of some form in my misc supps box. Clearly I tried it once and didn't think it was helping, but things are different now, so it's worth another try.

Yeah, half ubiquinone and half ubiquinol, but remember that ubiquinol is 3x more bioavailable (or something like that), so you only need 1/3 as much. So a 1200mg dose of ubiquinone only would translate to 600 mg ubiquinone plus 200 mg ubiquinol, according to Dr K.

Don't forget the PQQ!

 

[SDSue]

Don't forget the PQQ!

That’s asking a lot of this brain, lol. Remind me what PQQ is, and do we take it in addition to, or instead of?

ETA: Again, a reminder of what I’m missing. wink wink

 

[SOC]

That’s asking a lot of this brain, lol. Remind me what PQQ is, and do we take it in addition to, or instead of?

ETA: Again, a reminder of what I’m missing. wink wink

Silly me! "Don't forget...." from the person who forgot she had memory problems.

According to Dr K, PQQ encourages the generation of new mitochondria and should be a part of any "mito food" complex we take.

I'm going with PQQ and acetyl-carnitine and figuring the CoQ10 and other anti-oxidants I'm taking will handle the anti-oxidant part of the job. So I'm skipping the ALA for the time being. Since I've got the riboflavin already in hand, I'll probably go ahead and add that in... WTH. It's been a very WTH kind of week.

 

[SDSue]

Silly me! "Don't forget...." from the person who forgot she had memory problems.

According to Dr K, PQQ encourages the generation of new mitochondria and should be a part of any "mito food" complex we take.

I'm going with PQQ and acetyl-carnitine and figuring the CoQ10 and other anti-oxidants I'm taking will handle the anti-oxidant part of the job. So I'm skipping the ALA for the time being. Since I've got the riboflavin already in hand, I'll probably go ahead and add that in... WTH. It's been a very WTH kind of week.

Thanks!

Looking at PQQ studies, all in rats and mice, they are dosing with 2 mg/kg. That’d be a lot of PQQ for average human, as it comes in 10 or 20 mg capsules. Do we need 2mg/kg, or are human needs less?

 

[Mij]

@SOC you might want to reconsider taking ALA. There are studies that show the 2 combined (acetyl-l-carnitine and ALA) work better. I found this to be my experience too.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20414966

 

[SOC]

Thanks!

Looking at PQQ studies, all in rats and mice, they are dosing with 2 mg/kg. That’d be a lot of PQQ for average human, as it comes in 10 or 20 mg capsules. Do we need 2mg/kg, or are human needs less?

Dr K didn't say anything about dose. I'm going to start with 20 mg daily, which is a lot less than 2 mg/kg. None of the supp manufacturers seem to be suggesting more than 20 mg daily. I suppose we'll have to do more research to find out if there's better info using human subjects

@SOC you might want to reconsider taking ALA. There are studies that show the 2 combined (acetyl-l-carnitine and ALA) work better. I found this to be my experience too.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20414966

Okay, good point. Sigh... this is getting expensive. If it improves my QOL as much as the high dose CoQ10 has, it will be worth it, but I wish I didn't have to do expensive experiments to find out if it's going to help or not.
.

 

[Mij]

It does get expensive. My functional/integrative doctor advised me to take PPQ wih Coq10 yrs ago, and to be honest I found the increased dose of Coq10 alone was good enough. Of course you'll have to try and see.

 

[ahmo]

Ahmo, do you know how the FMN B2 compares to regular B2 when dosing? The FMN comes in 18 mg tablets, whereas the regular comes in 100 mg. Are they equivalent?

L-carnitine - anybody have info on brands?

It doesn't seem that FMN and B2 doses are equivalent. I poisoned myself w/ 50mg R5P, 18mg FMN has been transformative. Drastically reduced my need for antioxidants, almost eliminated my need for antihistamine, mast cell supps.

correction: B2, not r5p

I found Acetyl L Carnitine (ALCAR) was useless for me in the context of Freddd's Methylation Protocol. For that I use L Carnitine Fumarate, (LCF; Dr.s Best or Source Naturals). However I recently added ALCAR as suggested by Martin Pall for additional antioxidant support, as needed. It's not my body's first choice, but, along w/ AdenoB12, has been helpful when on the brink of a crash. FMN has eliminated my need for this. I'm also not in a high stress/activity period.

I used PQQ for a few months. My body no longer tests + for it, and when I took one just to see, I noticed no benefits. Possibly my protyolytic enzyme regimen shifted something here.

My experience of glutathione was not IV, but denatured whey. Disastrous.
(Looks like you got piggy a bodyguardprobably a well-known team that my cultural awareness has missed.)

 

[SDSue]

ETA:

(Looks like you got piggy a bodyguardprobably a well-known team that my cultural awareness has missed.)

Yes, a bodyguard was in order - my poor chicken was taking quite a beating on another thread. PS: not a pig, lol, - apparently your cultural awareness is even worse than we’d imagined! )

 

[ahmo]

not a pig

OMG, of course...

 

[Sushi]

The discussion of ALA and Glutathione has been moved to:
Potential risks of thiol supps: IV glutathione, alpha lipoic acid (ALA), N-acetyl cysteine (NAC) etc

 

[Mij]

It says here that patients with very low CoQ10 (<390 μg/L) suffered significantly more from concentration and memory disturbance

http://www.scopus.com/record/display.url?eid=2-s2.0-76049126501&origin=inward&txGid=4BBEF3E778EC1BBED78440E15B8BB31C.I0QkgbIjGqqLQ4Nw7dqZ4A:6

oops the link provided doesn't work. This one does

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20010505

 

[pogoman]

I read your first post this morning and decided to try increasing my coq10 (ubiquinol) dosage from 100mg twice daily to I think 6 or 7 times total today.
I did notice I had more energy and less pain at work, maybe even the same amount of pain at the end of the day but it didn't fatigue me like it usually does.

scratch the improvement from high dose coq10 for me, it only lasted a day and then I started having what passes for me as a relapse.
exhaustion in morning and evening before bed, pain and stiffness increased markedly to where I took some strong pain meds to make thru the rest of the week.
but I think I know why and I adjusted my supplements accordingly yesterday and today was a big improvement.

I think it either lowered my B12 levels or interfered with the cellular B12 level.
I had a suspicion that the current bottle of lithium orotate from another company that I bought was weak, so last week I had ordered the Swanson brand that I first tried and had such a big improvement with initially and it made a difference.
Yesterday it arrived and I took about 3 of them and the same today with probably 40mgs total of various B12s, I was even able to do a bit of exercise tonite

 

[SOC]

Interesting development...

I accidentally did a micro-experiment.

Yesterday by 9:00 AM I was showing signs of PEM -- distinct cognitive dysfunction and extreme exhaustion. WTH? I don't remember doing anything excessive in the last 4 days or so. I shouldn't be having PEM. But hey, we all know that sometimes we don't know what brings it on. So I struggled through my day and went to bed as soon as my workday was over, got up for a bit to eat dinner and visit PR, and then back to bed feeling pretty crappy.

This morning I got up wondering how today would go and worried that I might not be able to make it through my workday. I ate breakfast and took my meds/supps..... and discovered that yesterday I forgot to take my CoQ10. I took my 1200mg of ubiquinone and 300mg ubiquinol today and I'm back to where I was in terms of cognitive function and energy. Again the PEM-feeling is gone.

Since my PEM lasts a minimum 2 weeks and often months, my guess is that at some level my body is still struggling with the consequences of overdoing on my INIM trip. So perhaps in some way the high dose CoQ10 is compensating for, but not eliminating, the PEM...? I dunno. I report it, but I can't explain it.

I don't think I'm going to be in any big hurry to drop my CoQ10 dose.

 

[L'engle]

I've been taking 30mg of Jarrow Coq10 this week. The wakefulness seems to start about 10 hours after I take it and last till about 22-24 hours. So I have been taking it earlier and earlier. Lat night took it before sleep at 1am. Was able to feel alert a bit earlier each time. I guess maybe it has some downstream effects that take several hours to come into their own after taking it. So far so good, hope I can keep taking it. I've had one side issue after another this year and it is good to finally have something seem to be working out.

 

[SickOfSickness]

I've read about MitoQ, but I haven't been able to decide whether I think their story is scientifically legit or just advertising hype.

I would guess the same thing can accomplished with ubiquinol taken with the right fats.

I'm taking capsules of CoQ10 powder, but my friend takes mini gelcaps which have liquid that he gets in bulk cheaply. They are supposed to absorb quicker since it's liquid, but I'm thinking it also absorbs better because of the soybean oil (which all gelcaps seem to have)? I need to figure out what I need to take with my CoQ10 to make it work better, I guess just some oil.

I've been taking 30mg of Jarrow Coq10 this week.

CoQ10 at that low dose? Only 30mg?

I read your first post this morning and decided to try increasing my coq10 (ubiquinol) dosage from 100mg twice daily to I think 6 or 7 times total today.
I did notice I had more energy and less pain at work, maybe even the same amount of pain at the end of the day but it didn't fatigue me like it usually does.

For me I had found last year that coq10 and riboflaving together improved pain and fatigue noticeably.

Riboflavin is helping me too. I need to try more frequent dosing of CoQ10. I've been taking it once per day.

I took Doctor's Best for a while because it was cheap. False economy. It's not in a fat-based carrier, which means it's not as easily absorbed, I've learned, and it's not Kaneka.

Maybe you can answer my questions then. What kind of fat does it need to absorb better? Wouldn't it work just to eat fats at the same time? I was hoping I could eat some coconut oil or nuts with my capsule to take care of that.