Review: 'Through the Shadowlands’ describes Julie Rehmeyer's ME/CFS Odyssey
I should note at the outset that this review is based on an audio version of the galleys and the epilogue from the finished work. Julie Rehmeyer sent me the final version as a PDF, but for some reason my text to voice software (Kurzweil) had issues with it. I understand that it is...
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Did eradicating H Pylori actually help you?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Prefect, Jan 11, 2017.

  1. Prefect

    Prefect Senior Member

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    Half the world has H Pylori in their stomach and don't have CFS/ME. But lately I've been running into posts on this site about people trying to eradicate it.

    When my doctor found out I had H Pylori he was hellbent to eradicate it, which would have involved putting me on enough antibiotics that would have killed all living organisms in a rainforest. I said no, of course and never looked back.

    But now I'm shocked to see people here doing just that.

    I want to know if it's helped anyone who's actually gone through with it. Did it make a notable difference?
     
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  2. Prefect

    Prefect Senior Member

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  3. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

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    I had severe gut symptoms around the onset of my illness that got continuously worse over the course of 5 years. I tested positive for h.pylori and was treated for 10 days, My gut is doing great now. I also take pepzin Gi for maintenance.

    H.pylori can lead to gastric cancer down the road so I wouldn't ignore treating it.
     
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  4. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    It is wrong to think of H.pylori as a problem that should be eliminated. It is better to think of it in terms of risk-benefit.

    It can cause problems, or at least some strains of it can. If so, there is a good case to be made for treatment - ie elimination. Elimination however may carry a downside.

    H. pylori
    is an ancient symbiont, an organism that we have evolved to co-exist with and which is a natural part of our microbiome. It can have both beneficial and detrimental effects on us the host. It is not an acute infection with only negative consequences. Think of it like E.coli. Mostly this is a harmless natural component of the gut, occasionally it can get out of hand. Many other normal gut consitutents occasionally get out of hand. Does this mean we should eliminate them all, even if we could? Of course not.

    We are gradually losing it in the Western world and people like Martin Blaser, who has studied and written about this extensively - eg in "The Missing Microbes", has described the ways in which the loss is to our detriment.

    It is true that the presence of H. pylori leads to a risk of ulcers and gastric cancer but as people are following the Western populations which are losing the organism, they are seeing an increase in esophogial cancer in parallel with the decrease in gastric cancer and ulcers.

    Furthermore, loss of this organism appears to be one of the important factors in the increasing rise of allergies and asthma.

    These are just a few examples. As we are learning more about the important role that bacteria play in maintenance of the human organism, we need to update our approach to these organisms. Simply killing something because it is there is very foolish.
     
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  5. frederic83

    frederic83 Senior Member

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    I have a gastritis and I had h-pylori. I used sulforaphane to eradicate it. Tested before and after. It worked great and I felt less inflammation and I was better for a moment, so it was beneficial. But I noticed no changes regarding my gastritis nor the GI symptoms.
     
  6. Prefect

    Prefect Senior Member

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    But did this elimination help your mental fog, mental fatigue, etc?

    Yes, if I ever get an ulcer I'll eradicate it.

    I'll pose the same question I posed to Mij. Did this step actually improve your CFS/ME, mental fatigue, brain fog, etc?
     
  7. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

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    @Prefect no, the infection was separate from M.E. I did not experience PEM or mental fatigue during the time of infection.

    My mental stamina got worse over the years.
     
  8. frederic83

    frederic83 Senior Member

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    Nope, my CFS did not improve. H pylori was an additional burden but is not link to CFS/ME. I think it is definitely worth eradicating it, though.
     
  9. Prefect

    Prefect Senior Member

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    The reason I ask is even conventional medical research papers seem to indicate H Pylori causes "intestinal permeability" (normal doctor word for Leaky Gut, even though they say Leaky Gut doesn't exist) due to inflammation which could lead to conditions such as IBD, IBS, and Celiac.

    So, logic follows H Pylori eradication should help resolve CFS symptoms in subset of patients who feel their condition is mainly due to Leaky Gut.

    Heck, by that argument every celiac patient should be eradicating their H Pylori.

    So I'm very curious what happens when CFS/ME patients eradicate theirs. So far 2 have said it doesn't make a difference. So back to looking up bone broth recipes for me...lol
     
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  10. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    Very interesting. Blaser says that the overall effect of H. pylori with time is to reduce gastric acidity. Increasing acidity as a result of its disappearance may be behind the increase in esophageal cancer.
     
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  11. Carl

    Carl

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    I strongly disagree with you!

    H. Pylori does itself cause Increased Intestinal Permeability Syndrome aka Leaky Gut, just like the closely related bacteria which causes CFS/Fibro. It should not be ignored, it should be destroyed!

    H. Pylori and similar bacteria, which there are quite a few, reduces Stomach acid production, affects Vitamin B12 absorption, Mineral absorption, affects food breakdown which can lead to changes in Colon Flora and resulting weight gain. It affects the stomachs ability to protect the body from unwanted organisms and parasites due to it's suppression of stomach acid. From the stomach it spreads further into the digestive system causing further increases in digestive permeability, resulting affects on the immune system ie food allergies and reactions to foods. Increases in Liver enzymes, burden on the human immune system, damaging methylation with further consequences which you do not want to even consider and I will remain quiet about!

    ==============================

    I have had some success, only partial so far, by using Reduced Ionic Silver. Ionic Silver did nothing and should not be used internally, it's the reduced form that is far more stable in the stomach. It destroyed a very large biofilm on the right hand side of my stomach, not 100% but the majority of it. There is still a lot left to destroy.

    I am not a fan of pharmaceutical antibiotics, more local antibiotics are better IMO. I have some ideas and I am currently constructing a Colloidal Silver generator to make some of my own fresh Reduced Colloidal Silver ie small particulate silver rather than charged ionic silver as generated by colloidal silver generators.

    When making colloidal silver you have to control the current because the current will rise dramatically as the concentration rises because as silver enters the distilled water more current flows which tends to make larger particles which are less effective and can cause problems. After making it, it should be reduced to convert the positively charged particles to uncharged particles.

    Biofilms created by H Pylori and the bacteria which cause CFS are highly resistant, they can resist most antibiotics both foods and pharmaceuticals, very easily. If all else fails I will add a very small amount of DMSO to force the silver into the biofilm to destroy them but I hope to avoid having to do that as I dislike the idea of using DMSO internally. However if all other methods fail, I will use the H bomb!

    My previous partial success was using a Reduced Silver purchased on Amazon. There are some question marks over quality so I want to make some high quality fresh CS myself before I reduce it. I will use Maltose and maybe Aloe Vera powder mixed with distilled water to do that.

    I had wanted to use d- amino acids to trigger the break up of the biofilms but I have been unable to purchase despite looking world wide. No company will sell to the public, only to educational establishments and companies which has been so frustrating because these amino acids have been proven to be effective against biofilms. Taking an enzyme mix such as Interfase+ with the amino acids should cause the take up and subsequent break up of the biofilms. Following with CS would destroy the bacteria which would allow the stomach AND colon to heal. BTW these biofilms replace sections of the digestive mucosa and allow undigested food to enter into the bloodstream causing antibody attachment leading to problems in areas where the immune system regulation is poor ie immune system attacks against the body.

    BTW If anyone knows a place where d- amino acids could be purchased, or a way of acquiring them then let me know because they could make a difference to everyone on this forum. They are fairly expensive, a couple of grams costing about the same as 500grams of the more expensive l- form aminos. However only tiny amounts are required as they work as signalling molecules.

    I have utter contempt for H. Pylori and the yet unidentified bacteria causing CFS which shares much in common with Pylori, so no one should dare to say to me that these should be tolerated!!!! Destroy them but do it in a way which does the least harm to your digestive systems which have already been badly disrupted by the effects of these bacteria.
     
  12. Carl

    Carl

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    I have read somewhere that Bacillus Subtilis can have some success at triggering the break up of these biofilms as they are mean to produce tiny amounts of d- amino acids as well as producing enzymes. But they're effectiveness is just not good enough IMO. It's D-Tyrosine, D-Leucine, D-Tryptophan & D-Methionine that are effective at triggering the break up of biofilm in lots of research.

    N-Actyl-Cysteine is used in some antibiotics but it's effectiveness is not all that good in my experience. Interfase+ has some effect. So does Nattokinase and Serrapeptase. I can feel Nattokinase have some effect but only on the right side of my stomach and there are other biofilms which are unaffected. The others seem far more resistant to all things. It's the others which are causing CFS. It's only the biofilm on the right side which I notice any effect or sensation. The one which causes the energy problems I have never noticed any effect from anything and it is a very large biofilm. It has destroyed a large part of my hypothalamus and pituitary gland on the right side.That occurred when I was 12 years old.
     
  13. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    H. pylori is associated with leaky gut in some people but the billions of people globally who are naturally colonised with this bacterium are not all suffering from leaky gut and the various other dire consequences you predict.

    Nor do all these people have ulcers and stomach cancer.

    I'm sure everyone on PR will be agog to hear that the cause of CFS is known and that it is a bacterium. Please do tell us more - we all seemed to have missed this startling fact.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2017
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  14. JES

    JES Senior Member

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    Solving CFS is not as simple as killing random gut bacteria. A lot of these side effects you mentioned can also be caused by other parasites, like hookworms.Hookworms in large population cause anemia etc. Yet, helminth therapy has actually helped people with CFS/ME, like in this thread. The way that gut bacteria interact with the immune system is quite complex, sometimes they can dampen cytokines in favourable way in inflammatory diseases like CFS.

    About two thirds of the world population has H. pylori, mostly in poor countries, yet CFS is distributed quite evenly everywhere, so it's hard for me to see the connection in your theory.
     
  15. Prefect

    Prefect Senior Member

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    There is no doubt H Pylori causes certain pathology in human body, and I'm aware of clinical research demonstrating H pylori increases gut permeability, but half the world carry it and don't have CFS, and if they treated it they'd catch it the next day because it's so pervasive and has been around for millions of years.

    Now, if anyone came on here and said they cured their CFS, heck no, if anyone came on here and said they got a 50% improvement in their CFS by treating their H Pylori I'll call my doctor tomorrow and have it treated.

    That's why I posted this. The proof is in the pudding.
     

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