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Did CFSAC's 'High Priority List' Illegally Bypass Public Input?

Discussion in 'Phoenix Rising Articles' started by Phoenix Rising Team, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. Phoenix Rising Team

    Phoenix Rising Team

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    View the Post on the Blog

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  2. Courtney Miller

    Courtney Miller

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    I'm distressed that you would go to Public Citizen. That organization chose to oppose Ampligen's approval at the FDA Advisory Committee meeting with no regard for the ME/CFS patients Ampligen has helped or could help, even after hearing moving testimony of patients on the drug. Public Citizen has no understanding of the illness, is not motivated to support patients, and put itself in the way of the first medication for ME/CFS, and as a result, all subsequent medications, for their own self-interest, not ours. ME/CFS patients should stay far away from them.
  3. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    Very frustrating and annoying behavior from CFSAC. Thank you for writing this very informative article about it, Jody.
  4. Nielk

    Nielk

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    Thank you Jody for this informative article. I will have to read it a few times to fully understand it. (bad brain today)

    The first step for any reaction is true knowledge of the problem. Thank you for bringing this issue to light. This sounds like a grave situation that needs to be remedied.
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  5. Jody

    Jody Senior Member

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    Glad to do it, Valentijn.
  6. Jody

    Jody Senior Member

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    Nielk,

    I had to read it a few times myself to get a handle on it. Jennifer Spotila helped me out with that. I appreciate all she's written on this to make our community -- and hopefully others -- aware of what's been going on. And I appreciate the time she spent with me helping me put things together.
    taniaaust1, Nielk and Valentijn like this.
  7. Sparrow

    Sparrow Senior Member

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    I respect the concerns of others here, but this doesn't currently upset me. I assume that someone involved with the CFSAC is familiar with the government organizations they're working with, and what they will and won't realistically pay attention to. It's like when I go to the doctor. I have learned very clearly that if I go with one symptom that is bothering me most, it might get investigated or treated. A list of 58 symptoms won't even all get read, and nothing gets actually checked out. The hope is that once that one symptom is dealt with, other symptoms will be next on the list. And I know going into it that certain symptoms are more likely to get sincere attention, while others would just get a sideways look and be brushed off.

    There's just no way that 58 things can all actually be "highest priority" and be worked towards in any meaningful and directed way. And I trust that the ones chosen were ones that were both key for future progress and likely to be attainable goals.

    I can see where there might be disagreements about exactly which items were highest priority, but I hope that people are also able to focus on the good that's being done here. If any of those things happened, it would be a great step for us. This is not a key problem for me, and in my mind we've got a ton of key things that really do need our efforts.

    I think sometimes we get used to be treated very unfairly by doctors, relatives, and the public. We feel like we are often not listened to, and are frequently put on the back burner. That can put us on guard a bit. I would want to give as much support and encouragement as possible to people who are working on our behalf, in meaningful directions, and towards goals that are helpful to us. We want them to continue that, and need their good will and support. Working with ME is not an easy job, and doctors who champion our cause can face a lot of adversity and lack of understanding from their colleagues. Feeling like we are supportive and grateful for their efforts can help to offset some of that and keep other young doctors entering the field. So if they're going in a mostly good direction, I'm inclined to send them a thank you note.
  8. jspotila

    jspotila Senior Member

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    Sparrow, I actually agree with what you say. The idea of creating a short High Priority List is an excellent one, and the CFSAC should pursue it. My concern, and the reason I acted as I did, is that the Committee abide by the rules and regulations as it does its work. If a pattern is established whereby the Committee does substantive work behind closed doors and never brings it to the public sessions, then that will ultimately hurt us. When I discovered what had happened here, I acted with the hope that the pattern would not be repeated.

    I also want to be clear that there is no evidence of malice here. I don't believe that the CFSAC or HHS is out to get us. It seems far more likely that someone dropped the ball on the rules, and now they need to clean it up. As long as it gets fixed, no lasting harm has been done.
    SOC, Valentijn, snowathlete and 3 others like this.
  9. jspotila

    jspotila Senior Member

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    I respectfully disagree, Courtney. I understand your concern about the Public Citizen testimony at the Ampligen hearing. But my interactions with the staff have been 100% respectful and they have been completely responsive to my concerns. Personally, I won't shun an organization because of one statement at one meeting.
  10. K2 for Hope

    K2 for Hope ALways Hoping

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    The Public Citizen also asked to have Crestor removed from the FDA drug approval list as it can cause kidney damage.

    http://www.citizen.org/Page.aspx?pid=3212

    I took it not knowing about the kidney damage, as the side effects listed do not state that.

    http://www.crestor.com/c/home.aspx

    They state "CRESTOR is not right for everyone. Do not take CRESTOR if you are nursing, pregnant or may become pregnant; have liver problems; or have had an allergic reaction to CRESTOR" and "Your doctor should do blood tests to check your liver before starting treatment with CRESTOR and if you have symptoms of liver problems while taking CRESTOR"

    I was diagnosed with 3rd stage Kidney failure in Jan 2011. I came off the Crestor after I found the "Public Citizen" document and subsequently it seems my kidneys are getting better (even though I was told that would never happen.)

    To date, Crestor has not been removed from the FDA approval listing even due to the clinical trials that had cited worse effects than Ampligen and there are other drugs on the market for the same condition as Crestor.

    http://www.citizen.org/Page.aspx?pid=3212

    "In opposing the drug’s approval at a July 9, 2003 FDA advisory committee meeting, we pointed to two cases of kidney failure and one case of kidney insufficiency in clinical trials prior to approval in which patients had also experienced both protein and blood in the urine. There were also a large number of patients who had blood and/or protein in their urine but had not suffered from kidney failure. In addition to this kidney toxicity, unique among all of the statin drugs, rosuvastatin is the only one of these drugs in which any cases of the life-threatening muscle destruction known as rhabdomyolysis was found to occur prior to approval. Even cerivastatin (Baycol), which was ultimately banned after at least 31 cases of fatal rhabdomyolysis, had not caused a single case of this adverse reaction prior to approval. In contrast, there were seven cases of rhabdomyolysis in patients receiving rosuvastatin before its approval. Although all were receiving a dose (80 milligrams) that was not approved, a small patient getting even the 40 milligram dose might be receiving the same amount of drug per pound of body weight and we were concerned that cases would occur at this 40 milligram dose or even lower doses. We stated that it was likely, if not certain, that if it were approved, rosuvastatin would have to be banned because of post-marketing cases of rhabdomyolysis and kidney failure that would inevitably occur."

    So, the Public Citizen is not there just to make sure a drug doesn't get FDA approval, but that the processes for all government actions are followed.

    It also seems ironic to me that Crestor, with clinical trials that were worse than those identified in the safety concerns for Ampligen, is on the FDA approved list and where there are other drugs that could be used. But Ampligen couldn't make the FDA approved list where there are no other drugs that are being offered for ME/CFS.

    I'm in support of the CFSAC being responsible to follow the rules as they should be doing but also am even more concerned about how the FDA is choosing the drugs it is adding to the approved lists.

    Why is Crestor approved when there are other "cholesterol-lowering" drugs and Ampligen not approved when the clinical trials showed less safety issues and there are no other drugs on the market now or in the near future for ME/CFS?
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  11. Molly

    Molly

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    Has anyone discovered why Galien Marshall, Jr., was seated as the Chairman of the CFSAC and not Steven Krafchick as was designated when Christopher Snell ended his term of service from the Board in November of 2011?

    It seemed to me that on June 1, 2012 I was as stunned as Mr. Krafchick when Dr. Marshall was surprisingly leading the Committee? Was this change also the result of a closed-door decision that somehow resulted in the name switch of the Committee Chairman Recommendation from Steve to Galien? Somewhere this should all be documented in the Final Meeting Report as to why the change?

    Steven Krafchick was to be the preferred name submitted in the recommendation as the current Chair of CFSAC; Galien Marshall was to take leadership only of the “Research Committee”. As Galien Marshall speaks, he refers to Sec. Sibelius as Sec. Sullivan, and implies knowing Sec. Sibelius on a first name basis, but could not master her formal name/title. Therefore, it is interesting that Dr. Marshall is the Chair at this time rather than the person the Committee Voted to recommend for Confirmation. Dr. Snell stated that the Committee Member’s Secret Ballot votes were “fairly counted” with the choice selection.

    View CFSAC Fall Meeting on November 9, 2011 from the 2:30 Committee Discussion (1:39:20 to 1:52:32 on video) Turn on your closed captions to follow the dialog:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VclEVvfJYRg&list=PL600CB038194B4593&index=15
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  12. jspotila

    jspotila Senior Member

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    Molly, this is really murky. You are correct that Mr. Krafchick was informally elected as the new chair by the committee when Dr. Snell retired. However, the Committee Chairman is selected by HHS, not by the committee. The informal election was a statement of the Committee's opinion, but was never binding on HHS. I do not know how Dr. Marshall was selected specifically, or whether the Committee's preference was considered, but I don't have any indication that there was a violation of procedure.
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  13. Molly

    Molly

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    Sparrow, I agree with many of your thoughts here, but from a slightly different perspective. When you are trusting of any Organization, Government or otherwise, you become vulnerable to what they want you to know.

    For example, you state you are content having 1 out of your 58 major symptom resolved by your physician at an office visit. Chronic Patients only get seen every 3 months unless something else Acute surfaces. That means it will take 14.5 years to resolve the last of your priority symptoms. If that is how we expect the Government Agency assigned to be our Representative at the big table, it is no wonder after 30 years, we have no acknowledgement, no tests, no realistic name identifier, no medications, no funding. If we are trustingly passive, we receive exploitation and seriously denied Patient Rights. We must be persistent to get the most quality of life we can muster when we are so vulnerable with this serious of a pathology within our bodies.
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  14. Molly

    Molly

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    My point is simply that the dialog that we see and hear during these hearings are not carried through in respect of the members who make recommendations on our behalf. There is a lot of work for all of the people setting around that table. It would be a kind gesture if the members earnestly voted for one person to Chair this Committee and something that simple would be acknowledge by the Secretary. I am not suggesting foul play, I am suggesting that if this is an example of a decision that was made and we have no explanation of what made the difference to Sec. Sibelius, then it stands to reason we have no rights to know why the Committee Members Recommendations never get past 5:00.

    How many more years will it take to get the Secretary to honor our demise, and become progressive on our behalf? Is the problem too many recommendations; or, is the problem how Government works on the surface when the public is present, is not the same as what we trust will be followed through to help us? Why all the time and money year after year, if the recommendations are not taken seriously? It confuses me, why one group of people are selected to suffer, when so many people are working diligently to bring hope. I would like to believe that these CFSAC Representatives are acknowledged as chosen professionals who are making wise recommendations which are respected enough for the Secretary to accept on occasion. I am working on 7 years of misery, and I really don't want to be counted as having a 30 year wait for proper care as so many valuable other people who suffer with this disease have had to do. It is not right. It simply appears that what we are seeing or hearing at the meetings are not important enough to respect the votes of the members. It is all murky as you have aptly discovered. Yet, the investigation was sparked only by you contacting Public Citizen and their advocacy for us.
  15. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    Where should of she put in this complaint then??? Not complaining at all is a far worst thing to do and wont help things.
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  16. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    A big thanks to Jennifer Spotila for makiing all this public and Jody for putting this info all together for us.
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  17. Kelly

    Kelly

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    I believe there was supposed to be a decision made regarding the ICD CM criteria for CFS in January.
  18. Jody

    Jody Senior Member

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    Thanks Taniaaust1.

    Could not have done it without Jennie Spotila.
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  19. Sparrow

    Sparrow Senior Member

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    I completely agree with being persistent and active in seeking the rights we deserve, and that the progress so far has been very poor. I just don't see this incident as evidence of the CFSAC not bothering with us, not working for our benefit, or exploiting us. I see them trying to help, and the seven items they've chosen make sense and are not at odds with our goals. I'm not advocating us being passive. I just don't personally see this particular case as a place where I would focus my energy when there are so many other areas where people aren't currently trying to help and need our persistence to inspire change. Obviously others feel strongly about this particular oversight, and that's fair too.

    I wouldn't expect to wait 14.5 years to get those symptoms treated. But I might have more success starting with one or two and getting the ball rolling. If we can get people on board with helping us, every successive step should be much easier than the last. New territory is always more difficult, and people will always be more resistant to the first few changes.

    Obviously it would be wonderful to have all 58 items resolved immediately. And that is what would be fair and deserved. But no matter how loud or active we were, I think that's unlikely to happen. Alternately, seven items with enough force behind them might be possible. And might pave the way for the next seven, and fifteen after that, and thirty others. As much as dramatic sweeping changes might be warranted, I would rather choose something likely to happen than pick an immediate goal so high that people will ignore the request completely. A bit of politics, diplomacy, and knowledge of human nature can only help us in actually getting as much of what we're after as possible.

    I honestly don't want to argue this, though. I'm sure we've all got plenty of other things to spend our energy on. :)
    SOC likes this.
  20. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    Out of those 7 things choosen on that high Priority list.. interestingly two of the items Im actually completely against!! as I think if introduced will work "against" what those who have ME need to be happening.

    I personally think that completely screws things up for those of us who want ME and CFS to be seen as completely separate things. We have an international consensus ME defination now.. so is lumping the names ME and CFS together the way forward.. doesnt this just confuse between ME and CFS even more? These illnesses need to be seen as separate not lumped. (and lumping them together hasnt helped in the other countries eg Australia who have done that and have been doing that for years but cause its ME/CFS.,. doctors still use the term CFS).

    So by this recommendation if implimented will do NOTHING at all for any community... and screw things up for the ME people.

    Where's anything in the recommendations which would help instead to separate ME and CFS and the various subgroups which most agree need to be separated as its a well known fact lack of separating the "CFS" subgroups is screwing up research etc.

    This is another thing which will help lump ME and CFS together even more and how will that help people.. once again.. it wont!!

    One would of thought that "priority recommendations" would be ones which could actually bring some very good changes to this community.
    ..................

    I know that many others who fit ME criteria and have ME would be feeling the same way about this lumping together thing. Irronic that almost a third of the recommendations made.. as a ME person Im completely against. (maybe the community should of been consulted more and things which arent splittling community views should of been focused on instead (if they were only going to focus on a few things).
    ....

    and things like "fund more research" is no good as a simple recommendation unless the research is being done well.. eg research on the various subgroups of ME/CFS. Fund more research may well just mean put more money into psych CFS studies. I think the priority recommendations need to be far more specific or they will backfire. They will be achieved but with our actual real needs actually going unmet.

    "Fund more research" what does this really mean too? To achieve that goal even funding a couple of thousand dollars more then previously is funding more research (Is this just an exercise is creating a goal which can be easily achieved so will just look good when it is said the goal is met?? but with the government not really doing much more at all? ). They should be calling upon Funding for this illness in a "fair way" compared to similar diabiliting illnesses affecting a similar amount of people and the funding they get. Be more specific about goals and what the high priorities are.

    Things like "Public Awareness Campaign" can backfire too.. as often very bad educational ME/CFS advice is put out there. No good putting a ton of money into an education campaign when its just pushing bad info on the illness.
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