Did anyone else get body pain as part of start up

[suzanne]

At the 6 week point now.

I have had bad body pain for the past few days. i am confused as to whether this is just a start up symptom ( I increased my methyl b12 from 750 to 1000 a day a week ago) or whether my increased methyl folate of 1200mcg for the last 2 weeks has caused me to get low thyroid symptoms- it may be that my increased migraines, body pain and numb toes are all associated with my low thyroid- kinda confusing as i was hoping my throid symptoms would all get better on this protocol.

I have dropeed the m folate back to 600 mcg a few days ago but I am still getting the rolling migraines with a frequency of between every day to every 3 days. Maybe 3 days of reduced methyl folate dose is not enough to yet jusge if this is going to make a differene- any view on this?

My symptoms feel like my old hypothyroid symptoms, but it is hard to work all this out. I just know that i feel worse than i did when i started this 6 weeks ago- all except a better energy- I have been able to start exercising- only curtailed by the migraines! Grrr.

I have increased my potassium, just in case that is a factor.

 

[therron]

Hi Suzanne,
Yes, I did have body pain for the first one to two weeks. No migraines, thankfully. The extra energy came in the form of excitotoxicity, meaning no sleep. I have not yet found a dose that gives me energy without insomnia (I'm at 500 mcg Mb12, 400 mcg Mfolate now). Hope this helps!

 

[Vegas]

Body pain was a prominent symptom for me

Not the usual achiness that most people wake up with every day, but I had lots of localized achy spots that didn't feel like trigger points. These would come and go and re-appear in new areas. In fact, I would say this was one of those symptoms that was noticeably worse after starting methylation supps...it probably peaked at about 8 months...then I started chelation and it got worse for a few months. I wouldn't describe the headaches from meth supps that I experienced as migraines, which I characterize more as a unilateral stabbing pain. For me the headaches were usually bilateral, and frontal--above the eyes. 6 weeks through 4 months was probably the worst part, and with this there is a lot of temperature variation and other symptoms seemingly mediated by the hpa axis. You might want to supplement with selenium (400 mcg) and pantethine (900 mg). If the headaches are sulfite induced you can certainly try high dose molybdenum...at least 500 mcg/day, but be aware some people get side effects from this. Definitely do epsom salt baths or take a few tablespoons orally if you can stand it. Lay off the fruits. Implement individually.

At the 6 week point now.

I have had bad body pain for the past few days. i am confused as to whether this is just a start up symptom ( I increased my methyl b12 from 750 to 1000 a day a week ago) or whether my increased methyl folate of 1200mcg for the last 2 weeks has caused me to get low thyroid symptoms- it may be that my increased migraines, body pain and numb toes are all associated with my low thyroid- kinda confusing as i was hoping my throid symptoms would all get better on this protocol.

I have dropeed the m folate back to 600 mcg a few days ago but I am still getting the rolling migraines with a frequency of between every day to every 3 days. Maybe 3 days of reduced methyl folate dose is not enough to yet jusge if this is going to make a differene- any view on this?

My symptoms feel like my old hypothyroid symptoms, but it is hard to work all this out. I just know that i feel worse than i did when i started this 6 weeks ago- all except a better energy- I have been able to start exercising- only curtailed by the migraines! Grrr.

I have increased my potassium, just in case that is a factor.

 

[suzanne]

Hi therron and vegas, thanks for giving me some feedback, as I feel a bit lost.

therron, I notice you are on small doses and I assume this is because you are trying to found a balance between the insomnia/ wired, negative effects and the positives that might come from improving the methylation cycle. I have persisted in getting my mb12 dose to 1000mcg in the hope that these nasties are not going to hang around as long- of course, the down side is that you have to live with the exaccerbated symptoms for awhile. But I am no longer able to work, so i am just trying to see if I can get through to the 3 months and then reassess.

It is good to kow that both you and Vegas had some sort of body pain start up- makes me feel less freaky and alone- it halps me to reconcile that, if I persist, it shouldeventually subside.

I am taking the 1000mg a day of mb12 in split doses and can truly say that mostly I feel worse after the 6 weeks- even though I have reduced my dose of m folate back down from 1200mcg to 600mcg. This reduction doesnt seem to have made any difference. The headaches I have are both migraine and tension type. I have constant headaches ( I did before i started this too) but they are now more severe- like pressure building in my head and the pain is unilateral. But about every 2-3 days i get a migraine with nausea and worsening of the head pain ( as if that seems possible?)

I have ordered some calcium d glutarate which helps with detox of the liver and cells- as 'determined', from this site, said that might help- it has helped her with migrine control- anything is worth a go.

My body pain is more like you describe Vegas- not the usual trigger points and it moves around.

Interesting that you say:
6 weeks through 4 months was probably the worst part, and with this there is a lot of temperature variation and other symptoms seemingly mediated by the hpa axis.
...I have really noticed temperature variations- some break outs in sweating which is really unusal for me and then other times just cant get my feet warm even though the temperature here in western australia is amost temperate....So thanks for your insights about the proptocol affecting the hps axis. I reckon this is definitely affecting my symptoms which all seem to line up with what I used to get when my thyroid was low.

I also appreciate it when someone shares how long their start up lasted- it sounds like the first 6 week pont I am at is only the beginning and this could go oon for a few more months. Wow, I hope the migraines go soon. The increased energy is great but not much use if it is accompanied with chronic head pain and the migraines every couple of days. I will just hang in there with my current doses trial the calcium d glutarate when it arrives. if you could explain why you thought of the pantethine and selenium that would be great

You also mention :
You might want to supplement with selenium (400 mcg) and pantethine (900 mg). If the headaches are sulfite induced you can certainly try high dose molybdenum...at least 500 mcg/day, but be aware some people get side effects from this.
I have tried the molybdenum before- no luck. I do take 200mcg selenium a day but no pantethine unless it is in the douglas multi B...why do you suggest these 2 supplements, is it because of adrenals or anther reason?

Again, you are both generous to share this stuff with me. Thanks

 

[Vegas]

Selenium because it is necessary for Glutathione Peroxidase (GPx) and thyroid function, and pantethine, which can boost adrenal hormone production as well as it's role as a precursor for Co-A. Pantethine should be high dosage, 900 mg or so, and avoid the selenite form of selenium. Of course these substances have a lot of other benefits. Selenium can passivate mercury, and pantethine can act as a growth medium for good bacteria in the gi tract. Make sure you are getting enough zinc too, 50-75 mg.

Sorry to hear about how bad you are feeling with the headaches. Sometimes moly helped, sometimes the epsom salt baths helped. I had one that lasted for three days and there was absolutely nothing I could do to make any difference. They usually come with a toxic/sick feeling that is a bit hard to describe. Your negative response does suggest you are on the right track and I expect you will enjoy more benefits in time. If you have metal toxicity, you are only going to get so far on the meth supplements, so after awhile if progress is not being made you need to seriously look into this.

 

[suzanne]

I am taking selenium the form is selenomethione, as i have heard this is best. I only take 200mcg a day and take this together with zinc picolinate at 75 mg a day

Perhaps I need to increase my selenium dose?

I will explore getting some high dose pantethine as i knwo i have gut problems, ongoing.

I havent got a bath so the epsom salt thing is a bit tricky- i am doing sauna ( normal type) for 20 minutes about 4 days a week and this seems to help my symptoms a bit. I also take alkana n it is called in australia- I think this is an alkalysing product that may work a bit like epsom salts?

yep, I have that toxic sick type feeling with my headches every day, so I know what you are talking about. In fact I describe it to my husband as a feeling of being poisoned! Ha! No big inheritance looming so I dont suspect anyone

I suspect I have mercury toxicity as i have had bad reactions to the andy cutler protocol at even tiny doses of dmsa, like 6 mg every 6 hours- I think that the reaction is linked to my high levels of candida. It was the mercury chelation reaction that indirectly lead me to this site to try methylation improvement first. Fingers crossed , eh. I take it that you might be a long way down the pth from me and doing some chelation?

Again, I really appreciate what you have outlined and will follow up on the pantethine.

regards

Suzanne

 

[Vegas]

Perhaps I need to increase my selenium dose?

> 200 should be o.k.

I havent got a bath so the epsom salt thing is a bit tricky- i am doing sauna ( normal type) for 20 minutes about 4 days a week and this seems to help my symptoms a bit. I also take alkana n it is called in australia- I think this is an alkalysing product that may work a bit like epsom salts?

>Keep doing the sauna if you can tolerate. Re: the epsom salts, the Magnesium is obviously helpful, but its the sulfate that you want, take it orally. Perhaps the worst thing you will ever taste, but it MIGHT help you feel better. Couple of tablespoons.

yep, I have that toxic sick type feeling with my headches every day, so I know what you are talking about. In fact I describe it to my husband as a feeling of being poisoned! Ha! No big inheritance looming so I dont suspect anyone

>"Poisoned." Exactly the same word I used to use. It is apparently a necessary evil.

I suspect I have mercury toxicity as i have had bad reactions to the andy cutler protocol at even tiny doses of dmsa, like 6 mg every 6 hours- I think that the reaction is linked to my high levels of candida. It was the mercury chelation reaction that indirectly lead me to this site to try methylation improvement first. Fingers crossed , eh. I take it that you might be a long way down the pth from me and doing some chelation?

> Please don't take DMSA every 6 hours. Every 4 works for most, some need every 3.5. 1.5 yrs of working on the gi tract, 1 yr methylation, 4 mos chelation. I've take 15 grams of DMSA over the past 120 days and it has resulted in tremendous improvement. By the way, what kind of reaction did you have to 6 mg of DMSA, and how long did you take it?


Suzanne[/QUOTE]

 

[suzanne]

Poisoned! ha! I am glad that resonated with you- at least i know there may be some hope of coming out the other side one day. At this point I just take the symptoms day by day and hope it will feel a bit better around October or november when i am 4 months in.

I will keep doing the sauna as it seems to help me feel a bit less toxic. I will give the epsom salts a go.

As to your progress, it may be that the gut work you have done and the 1 year of methylation puts you in a better space to start chelation. My dr said with methylation blocks in place, chelation is likely to make me more symptomatic (given that I cannot detox properly) and that is what happened- but in a really bad/ intolerable way. Unlike this methylation protocol where i feel toxic and sick- i am at least not confined to the couch. When I took the 6 mg dmsa every 6 hours, I was couch ridden- couldnt get my head off the pillow. Basically i had chronic headpain and nausea and intense body itch that all started within 30 minutes of my first dose of dmsa and did not settle down for bout 5 days after I stopped the dmsa. Interestingly, i have the same reactions to all metal detox substances - I have tried humifulate and modified citrus pectin and zeolite- they all made me get the same symptoms. I did wonder if i have a systemic overload of candida as the symptoms felt just like really bad candida die off- just a hunch. It is hard for me to know where to start- i have done gut work for years and not really made much progress despite loads of tests and lots of findings eg low butyrate, low bile salts, need to supplement with specific good bacteria that are low. Also a finding of a bcterial overgrowth- streptococcus and also candida glabrata. Despite all my attempts over years, my gut never seems to improve. My dr is now saying that i need to stick with the methylation protocol and see if the other things can be addressed as i progress.

I have a son with aspergers syndrome ( in the autism spectrum) and i knw my genetics ( yasko testing) indicate that i have methylation issues due to genetic mutations - what i did not know when I tried the yask supplements is that I a an undermethylator and am doing so much better on fredds protocol due to the methyl supplements.

Interesting to me that you have been having tremendous results from the dmsa over the last 4 months....I hope to be able to follow behind you in a year if i make good progress. I really appreciate knowing that this has helped you.

 

[gu3vara]

I can totaly relate to your symptoms when trying to detox using, the same happened to me.

I'm going to start the protocol soon, I guess I'll have a whole lot of itching too, that's already my worst symptom lately...!

 

[Vegas]

As to your progress, it may be that the gut work you have done and the 1 year of methylation puts you in a better space to start chelation. My dr said with methylation blocks in place, chelation is likely to make me more symptomatic (given that I cannot detox properly) and that is what happened- but in a really bad/ intolerable way.

> Unfortunately, some of the problems with methylation are severely impacted by the HM's, so in my opinion you are not likely going to be able to fix the methylation inefficiency altogether. You may be able to improve phase 2 liver detox, boost the enzyme activity, GSH, etc. so that the chelation becomes more tolerable. I was able to start with a fairly high dosage of chelators pretty quickly after 8 mos of meth supplements, and I attribute this to the cobalamin/folate combination.

Unlike this methylation protocol where i feel toxic and sick- i am at least not confined to the couch. When I took the 6 mg dmsa every 6 hours, I was couch ridden- couldnt get my head off the pillow. Basically i had chronic headpain and nausea and intense body itch that all started within 30 minutes of my first dose of dmsa and did not settle down for bout 5 days after I stopped the dmsa.

>yes, definitely recognizable symptoms of metal mobilization and redistribution. not fun, but a very strong piece of circumstantial evidence that you have a major hm problem.

I did wonder if i have a systemic overload of candida as the symptoms felt just like really bad candida die off- just a hunch. It is hard for me to know where to start- i have done gut work for years and not really made much progress despite loads of tests and lots of findings eg low butyrate, low bile salts, need to supplement with specific good bacteria that are low. Also a finding of a bcterial overgrowth- streptococcus and also candida glabrata. Despite all my attempts over years, my gut never seems to improve. My dr is now saying that i need to stick with the methylation protocol and see if the other things can be addressed as i progress.

>Unfortunately, in the presence of the metals, most only get so far with these measures. It doesn't appear that KDM's patients have enjoyed dramatic improvement, and I wonder how many have seriously gone after the hm's. The meth supplements are likely to help the dysbiosis, but I found that there was lots of die off, particularly in months 2-5...of course your experience is likely to be different.

I have a son with aspergers syndrome ( in the autism spectrum) and i knw my genetics ( yasko testing) indicate that i have methylation issues due to genetic mutations - what i did not know when I tried the yask supplements is that I a an undermethylator and am doing so much better on fredds protocol due to the methyl supplements.

> While no ASD kids, several of mine have ADHD, they do better on methyl folate + methycobalamin, but they really need chelation.

Interesting to me that you have been having tremendous results from the dmsa over the last 4 months....I hope to be able to follow behind you in a year if i make good progress. I really appreciate knowing that this has helped you.

>There is no reason you cannot get better, but make no mistake, it is not easy.

 

[suzanne]

I too reckon there is a hm problem, based on evidence of reactions to date.

I am interested that you started hm detox afer 8 months on the methylation protocol and could start with fairly sizeable doses- i hope to follow your lead and try again with heavy metals maybe in 6 or so months depending on how i feel...

but as you say, "make no mistake, it is not easy"