P2P, or not P2P, that is the question
As the 16 January, 2015 deadline for responding to the controversial P2P draft report draws near, and in the interests of balance and representing the whole community, Phoenix Rising presents two differing views on how to react. Today, Clark Ellis flags up important content to...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Dibencoplex for the active B12? Fred have you tried it yet?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by cureminded, Jun 14, 2012.

  1. cureminded

    cureminded

    Messages:
    64
    Likes:
    4
  2. TheMoonIsBlue

    TheMoonIsBlue Senior Member

    Messages:
    442
    Likes:
    54
    Hi curemind,
    I orderd this, will try a small amount on Sunday probably.

    I ordered this because someone else said it was much better than the source natural adb12, and it also does not contain mannitol or sorbitol which irritate my gut terribly.

    I'll let you know how I like it , but I have to go really slow with low doses because of all the Methylation supplements aggrevating my sleep disorders and other things.

    I am going to pour out a little of the powder and let it absorb sublingually.
     
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,721
    Likes:
    1,089
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Cureminded,

    That is on my next to order and try list. Now that I have the methylfolate stable, no more paradoxical folate deficiency symptoms, and I am continuing to lose 3+ pounds a month, which is really thrilling, I am hit with the possiblity that my whole "overweight" life may have come about because of the paradoxical folate deficiency.
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,721
    Likes:
    1,089
    Salt Lake City

    Hi TheMoonIsBlue,

    I have just posted to the revised active b12 thread talking about the titration to effectiveness for mb12/adb12/metafolin. Please consider that the sleep situation may not actully be a "methylation" situation but rather an ATP generation situation. The mb12, adb12, methylfolate and LCF can all cause sleep disorders in their deficiency and it takes a while to correct after the deficiency no longer exists.

    The person without these symptoms on the list also has no hyper responses and also no noticable response to any of these supplements. They are not drugs and don't force the body to do anything, they allow the body to normalize and heal. One of the things mentioned with mb12 specifcally is that while many people say they are sleeping somewhat less that they are also having more restful and restorative sleep.
     
  5. TheMoonIsBlue

    TheMoonIsBlue Senior Member

    Messages:
    442
    Likes:
    54
    Hi freddd,

    Yes, I agree with you it probably is ATP generation, otherwise like you said I would not be having the hyper responses to the supplements.

    Since I have been ill for quite a long time I am not expecting a miracle over night.

    I think in regards to sleep, what I have is called FREE RUNNING SLEEP, sometimes called non 24 hr sleep wake disorder.

    It has just gotten worse and worse. It feels like no matter how exhausted I am, my brain is hyperalert and wont send the signal to "go to sleep"

    I may need to search around and be brave and try some new medications for sleep and see if there is not something that will regulate it, I just dont know what. I really feel that the circadian rhythm sleep disorders screw up everything, most notably creating abnormal cortisol patterns. I am going to try a new melatonin supplement soon, although it never did much in the past.

    I still plan on continuning with all the b12s and methylfolate regardless because I really feel that I do need them.

    Sorry to curemind, I didnt mean to take over your thread!
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,721
    Likes:
    1,089
    Salt Lake City
    More than one person who had gotten the sleep worked out and then discontinued the adb12 and LCF only to find that the sleep problems came back, might give a hint. Also, timing with SAD lights or bright natural light can make a difference. Don't wear sunglasses so that the bright light can affect your sleep phase situation.
     
  7. TheMoonIsBlue

    TheMoonIsBlue Senior Member

    Messages:
    442
    Likes:
    54
    It was only the adb12 and LCF they discontinued that caused their sleep problems to return? Were they still taking Mb12 and Mfolate? I feel that the adb12 along with the mb12 is probably crucial in my situation. In all my years of on again off again methylb12 and mfolate supplemention, I never took them in combination with Adb12, because I really knew nothing about adb12!

    Natural bright light and natural vit d from the sun is the one thing, and the only thing, I can honestly say helps me feel better almost always and instantly. I just dont live where year round sun is available. I wonder if there are enorphins we produce in reponse to natural sunlight and the natural vit D our bodies make from sun exposure.

    I have never been able to recreate this effect with artifical light therapy and vit D supplements, in fact they made me worse.

    I guess there is something to be said for mother nature her natural health giving gift of the sun.
     
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,721
    Likes:
    1,089
    Salt Lake City
    Hi TheMoonISBlue,

    In one case, not once but twice. I have heard it mentioned more often then you might imagine. One of the problems is that after a person gets both up to level they dom't do anything discernable and seem to make no difference after you drop them, not for months, and then sleep problems come on slowly and don't seem at all connected to those two energy generators discontinued months before often. Or people confuse it's effects as "a methylator" which it is not., and don't want to increase that. The balance between mb12 and adb12 can make for large effects on mood and personality, and just how, depends upon the parts of the brain that appear to be affected in different people.

    Natural bright light and natural vit d from the sun is the one thing, and the only thing, I can honestly say helps me feel better almost always and instantly.

    I think so too. In a couple of weeks I'm leaving for the mountains for a summer in the sun at 7000 feet which changes the UV mix in some ways I can't tell you or the effects of that, in addition to more intensity. It takes me about 2 weeks of 30 minutes on each side (maximum production) to start feeling better and that increases for a couple of weeks, differently from altitude adjustments. It also takes about 2 weeks for my body to adjust to altitude from my home at 4500 feet. In a month I can make it up and down hundreds of feet of vertical in half the time as a month before and am not winded.

    In all my years of on again off again methylb12 and mfolate supplemention, I never took them in combination with Adb12, because I really knew nothing about adb12!

    It's the literal fatigue aspect of so many forms of this disorder. Without adb12-LCF ATP doesn't get made in sufficient quantity. In the brain lack of energy causes all sorts of mood and personality effects, pain, neurological effects as well as myelin maintnenance and potential problems in very part of the brain and cord, and in the body it can range from tired to totally exhausted all the time.
     
  9. cureminded

    cureminded

    Messages:
    64
    Likes:
    4
    Thanks Fred. I will be very curious te know the result. It's interesting that you mention weight loss. I've been loosing weight lately since I've started supplementing daily. I think there are several reasons for that in my case:

    - Taking all the pills makes me full so I eat less
    - The chromium stabilizes the blood sugar, so there are less cravings and I don't eat a bigger portion when I haven't had food for too long
    - The L carnitine (I take usually take 9 pills a day) is supposed to reduce fat mass and increase muscle mass
    - Having a b12 pill in my mouth prevents me from eating for a while until the pill is gone
    - Cravings for food could be less in general because the body is getting more of what it needs

    I have to add that I am quite a healthy eater. I don't really eat junk. I used te be quite thin before, but I think my metabolism has gone completely out of balance. During my pregnancy I went crazy on food and hadn't lost all the weight. The pregnancy really seems to have thrown everything out of balance.

    You mentioned before that personality changes and if you were deficient all your life than there is no previous you to go back to. I am still hoping to get back to pre pregnancy me. I think once the hormones went crazy and maybe methylation cycle got distorted, the immune system shut down and the EBV kicked in. Just a theory. Anyway it will be intresting to see what metafolin will do to depression and anxiety.

    Started on my first metafolin pill today thanks to you! Not sure whether it hit me as I have regular colds and I have one now. I was feeling pretty bad this morning though. Just a little while ago I thought my heart was beating a bit fast so I took a potassium pill just in case. Started the B right yesterday as well and also added vitamin E. My first order from iherb came two days ago, so I'm really happy.

    I haven't ordered the methyl and adenosyl B12s yet as I wanted to build the other stuff up and am still taking the hydroxy B12. Realized now that the order is wrong. Anyway going to order them now. Am worried about stopping the L carnitine for 2 weeks. It's been a life saver.

    Thanks Fred for all your help!
     
  10. cureminded

    cureminded

    Messages:
    64
    Likes:
    4
    No worries!:cool:

    Yes, please let me know how it goes with the Dibencoplex. It was Mr. Kite who came up with it at first and a couple of others had a good experience as well I believe. I wanted to hear from our expert/master mind here (Fred) though before I ordered.
     
  11. cureminded

    cureminded

    Messages:
    64
    Likes:
    4
    Hi Fred,

    One more thing. Christine Huebner (formerly known as Dog person) said the following in an e-mail:

    "Zinc blocks the absorption of manganese. But lots of people use it and feel better because they are also blocking the absorption of iron. But in the long run - it will only deplete the manganese to the point of the same symptoms prior to taking zinc, if not worse because now the manganese is even lower. (this is where Fredd currently is - very ill again)."

    Are you very ill again? I was surprised to read this because I had the impression that you were actually doing very well.

    By the way are you taking manganese for the B2? I think I asked this before, but don't think you answered. I am very confused by the B2, manganese discussion and sticking to B12 for now. Can't do hair analysis until the fall.

    Cheers
     
  12. adreno

    adreno on the beach

    Messages:
    3,175
    Likes:
    3,227
    Europe
    Christine claims to have found a common manganese deficiency in the hair samples she has analyzed. I don't know how reliable that finding is. I would personally confirm this finding with other type tests. A manganese deficiency is extremely rare.

    After supplementing manganese for a while, my hemoglobin got very low. Hemoglobin is built from iron (and copper), and manganese can inhibit the absorption of iron. So now I supplement iron and copper instead. Zinc is also an antagonist of iron and copper, so I take zinc in the morning, and iron/copper in the afternoon. I will do a retest of my hemoglobin after a few months, so we'll see how it goes. I certainly feel better now; on the manganese I was feeling increasingly weak, cold, dizzy and short of breath, all symptoms of low hemoglobin.
     
  13. cureminded

    cureminded

    Messages:
    64
    Likes:
    4
    Hi Adreno,

    Thanks for the reply. Your experience with manganese is one of the reasons that I am apprehensive to start with the manganese. But I am worried about (edited) B12 B6 and metafolin depleting B2 and B2 depleting manganese. I wish I knew a physician that I would trust who could order the right tests and tell me what to supplement in what ratio. But that's just a phantasy world right now. Are you still taking B2?
     
  14. adreno

    adreno on the beach

    Messages:
    3,175
    Likes:
    3,227
    Europe
    Yes, but not singularly (I take the other B vits also).
     
  15. cureminded

    cureminded

    Messages:
    64
    Likes:
    4
    Do you mean you take it as part of a b complex pill?
     
  16. adreno

    adreno on the beach

    Messages:
    3,175
    Likes:
    3,227
    Europe
    That's right.
     
  17. cureminded

    cureminded

    Messages:
    64
    Likes:
    4
    I have been taking dibencoplex for 5 days now. 'Too curious to wait for Fred.

    It could be my misperception, but so far I have a feeling that the 10 mg hydroxy B12 was doing a better job for me. I am probably able to convert the hydroxy though as it works for me in high doses, which is not the case for everyone here. It could have to do with the fact that the hydroxy is sublingual and I take the dibencolpex in a glass of water. Will continue trying the dibencolpex for now to investigate further.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page