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Detection of Mycotoxins in Patients with CFS

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by slayadragon, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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    In "Mold Warriors" (and maybe "Surviving Mold"), there is a "Rosetta Stone" that translates the numbers on the lab sheet to these genotypes.

    Here is a video on how to do it. Note that I have not watched this video yet though.

    http://www.gordonmedical.com/unrave...a-dr-by-pcr-test-using-the-hla-rosetta-stone/
  2. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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  3. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Thanks slayadragon.

    It is pretty expensive to get the urine test for three mycotoxins ($699). I wonder if the IgG and IgE antibody to mold species test panels, which are much cheaper, might be a good substitute test.
  4. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Skyline: That is an interesting video. I watched it right through.

    Interesting that the video mentions these laboratories that identify which mold species are present in your home from a length of sticky tape that you send them with some mold samples (you use some sticky tape to pick up mold samples in your home).
  5. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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    The IgE tests are related to allergy, which is not the same thing as toxicity. So for people who are concerned about mold toxicity, I don't think those are relevant.

    The IgG tests are related to exposure to the different types of molds, either internal (from molds that are colonizing the system) or external (from molds that are present in the environment). Occasionally I've heard people say that was helpful to them.
  6. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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  7. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I just found some figures for the biological half life of these various mycotoxins:

    Aflatoxins (found in 12% of ME/CFS patients) has a half life of 30 to 60 days. Ref: 1
    Ochratoxin A (found in 83% of ME/CFS patients) has a half life of 5 days. Ref: 1
    Macrocyclic trichothecenes (found in 44% of ME/CFS patients). One macrocyclic trichothecenes called verrucarin has a half life of 28 days. Ref: 1
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  8. Skyline

    Skyline Senior Member

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    Are these half-lives for someone with a 'normal detox' system, or for people suffering from CFS (i.e. detox impaired)?
  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    These half life figures are for normal healthy people; whether the half lives would be any longer in ME/CFS patients, I don't know.

    But even in healthy people, some of these mycotoxins have quite long half lives. In the case of macrocyclic trichothecenes, for example, with a 28 day half life, if you were exposed to this mycotoxin, and then removed yourself from the source of the exposure, by my calculation it would still take around 6 months before the levels of this toxin in your body dropped by a factor of 50 (that is, the body toxin level dropping from an initial 100% down to 2% would take 6 months).

    So this might explain why it can take time to recover from mold toxin illness, even if you remove yourself from further mold exposure. And of course, if you have reduced detoxification due to illness, then it may take even longer to recover.
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  10. Skyline

    Skyline Senior Member

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    Thanks for the clarification Hip.

    I just did the Visual Contrast Sensitivity test from Shoemaker (http://www.chronicneurotoxins.com/). I came out positive across the board.

    Have others done this test here? It's a quick 15 minutes/ $15 test that you can do with your computer to check if this mycotoxin theory is likely to be relevant to you.

    I haven't read into how and why the test works yet - but Shoemaker has a good reputation in this space from what I've read so far. Does anyone know more about this test and its reliability?

    I imagine that all of us will be positive for it.
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  11. free at last

    free at last Senior Member

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    I really dont get the idea of this study. By not comparing healthy controls who had similar exposures to mold, seems to me to tell us little about the CFS patients abillity to deal with the exposure. ( or lack of it ? ) all we are certain of as far as i can see, is that people exposed to possibly high levels of mold. will test positive for it in there urine ? without the direct control group of healthy people exposed to similar amounts of mold, how can we determine any signifacnt differences between the two groups ? that the CFS diagnosis had in some way impacted on the amounts of mold detected. and possibly its impact on there health compared to the control group. I cant see how this study proves anything other than people exposed to mold in WDB ( be it either CFS patients or healthy people ) will test positive in high concentrations for mold in there urine. Am i missing something here ? Why did they not test healthy people exposed to mold in WDB to see any relevent differences that could only be due to the CFS diagnosis.
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  12. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    I did the test a while back and was negative to my surprise. My impression was also that if you did it with cards it might turn out differently from doing it on a computer where resolution, brightness, etc. might vary. I did it on a computer.

    Sushi
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  13. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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    I tested positive on the VCS when living in my moldy house but negative a few months after moving out. Since then, I've sometimes tested positive and sometimes tested negative. I continued to benefit from mold avoidance throughout though.
  14. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I have not taken Shoemaker's tests, but I believe the theory of these Shoemaker visual contrast sensitivity tests is that neurotoxins in your body will reduce the ability of your retina (which is technically a part of your brain) to distinguish between subtly different shades of gray. So by checking to see how your eyes can distinguish between fine differences in shades of gray in an image, you get an indication of the level of neurotoxins in your body. How accurate such tests are as a measure of your neurotoxin level, I am not sure.

    I include below two free visual contrast sensitivity tests.

    I don't know how these two tests compare to Shoemaker's test, but in the first test (the Pelli-Robson contrast sensitivity chart) below, I can just about read the lowest row of letters; and in the second test below (the Campbell-Robson contrast sensitivity chart), I can distinguish the horizontal lines for about 90% to 95% of the way from right to left.


    Pelli-Robson Contrast Sensitivity Chart
    How may rows of letters can you read (there are a total of 8 rows of letters)?
    pelli-robson720.gif


    Campbell-Robson Contrast Sensitivity Chart
    How far towards the left side of the image can you still distinguish the horizontal lines from the background?
    Visual Contrast Sensitivity Chart VCS.gif

    It is possible that the type of computer monitor you have, and its contrast settings, will affect these tests. I believe these tests are normally conducted with a standardized printed version of the charts.


    More Info:

    Pelli-Robson Contrast Sensitivity Chart
    Campbell-Robson Contrast Sensitivity Chart
    CONTRAST SENSITIVITY CHARTS
  15. Skyline

    Skyline Senior Member

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    Hip thanks for posting these.

    For reference I can't read the two bottom rows of the first chart. I can just about see that there is something on row 7. So it seems to fit with the test results I got with Shoemaker's VCS.
  16. Xandoff

    Xandoff Michael

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    I did that test a couple of years ago and was positive. I think this illness effects our bodies ability to eliminate these myco-toxins. I have vision changes all the time.
  17. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Very interesting, Skyline. It might be worth me starting a new thread with a poll questionnaire, to see how many rows of letters other people with ME/CFS can read on the above Pelli-Robson Contrast Sensitivity Chart.
  18. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    I can see the lines at the bottom if I tilt my laptop screen.

    This sort of test is not intended for being used on computer screens.
  19. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Yes, tilting an LCD computer monitor does change the contrast, and so affects the results. I suspect this problem will occur more on the cheaper twisted nematic type LCD monitors. The slightly more expensive in-plane switching LCD monitors create an image that is much more stable with respect to the angle of viewing.

    I wonder how Ritchie Shoemaker's online visual contrast sensitivity test controls for this problem?
  20. Tristen

    Tristen Senior Member

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    Thanks for posting these tests Hip. I am yet to do the Shoemaker visual exam cause I was waiting on my labwork which I just received and it appears they are all quite abnormal....so I expect to be hearing from my GP soon on that.

    On the Pelli-Robson, I can only see 3.5 of the lines out of the 8. On the Campbell-Robsin, I can see between 50-75% of the lines to the left. Sounds as though I've flunked these as well.

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