1. Patients launch a $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
ME/CFS and the Magic of the Canine Factor
There's been plenty of research indicating that having pets is good for your health. I never really noticed any particular benefits to having cats, though that may have had more to do with my cats. They've been fairly indifferent to my presence and we've shared a live-and-let-live...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Desperately need help with failed Klonopin/Valium taper - life is a mess

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Esperanza, Jan 8, 2012.

  1. runner64

    runner64

    Messages:
    60
    Likes:
    1
    I didn't want to get into this on this forum as I just posted about what I think is a mycolplasma infection from a saline implant. What a cycle. That said, I went on klonopin not knowing what it was, no informed consent, got very sick coming off the wrong way. Dedicated my time the last 2 years helping people get off benzodiazipines and z-drugs which are the sleeping pills that go to the same place in the brain. There's a new method that's easier than Ashton. It's a liquid milk titration. Klonopin and valium are the only 2 benzodiazipines that are milk soluble. Fatty milk. It totally dissolves and binds perfectly benzo and milk. Daily micro reduction of 1ml -5 ml per day. It fools the brain into thinking it's not losing benzo.

    I'm off the benzo, I got insomnia from saline implants. End up on Klonopin. Off Klonopin realizing it was making me sick. Got better. Started sleeping naturally again. Now from sick from implants though explanted. And infection gives me insomnia. This time, I heal to get sleep back and take nothing. How bout that cycle?

    The women that developed this method has done seminars with some doctors in her state that are now listening. She was taken off abruptly and was very sick and couldn't walk etc. Sick quite sometime like myself with physical symptoms. Genetics. That said she reinstated to taper and specializes in that, and daily slow micro reduction. She managed to take it one step further than Ashton ONLY because this is specifically what she studied. Geraldine Burns is a friend of mine and helped Dr. Heather Asthon write the Ashton Manual and she recommends those having trouble with 10%-5% and even less reduction %'s every two weeks to Karen at benzofreedom. Same rule as most cross over to valium for the longer half life. 50- 100hrs. Klonopin 18-50 approx. It can be done off of klonopin though.

    If you google Geraldine Burns and "addiction radio show" the article explains she worked with Ashton. She's still very active helping. I'm taking a break after 2 years but in situations like this reading what I just found on this board, it's a different story.

    If anybody has problems with this drug, I have no problem explaining how benzodiazpines affect the brain so you understand the physicality of "why you feel nervous" and other symptoms. Your dependence is physical, not your fault. Please don't hesitate to pm me or ask me publicly it seems that's permitted. www.benzofreedom.com is a new site with the new method. No horror symptom threads like many mainstream boards as it's so much gentler on the brain body central nervous system reducing this way.

    I'm NOT here promoting a benzoboard. I have CFS syptpoms from a deflated saline now explanted implant and am here to ask questions. BUT when I see benzos I feel a responsibility to help pay info forward though.

    I'm reading here a lot of people having trouble reducing. Neurofeedback and acupuncture doesn't touch what a benzo does to the brain. This slow reduction can help those struggling and maintain functionality. I hope this helps somewhat. As I said, I will be more than happy to explain layman's in detail if anyone wants a clearer pic. Karen is a dear friend at benzofreedom with phone support and help setting up tapers. Family person and is dedicating fulltime right now.

    It's not a race getting off a benzo. Depending on the dose, and due to genetics, what reduction one can handle, it can be 6 months, a year, a couple of years doing it right to maintain functionality therefore length is not tedious. Thankyou Freddie. You are abslolutely right in slow is the way to get off. When some get off easier it is often thought by doctors, these types have a stronger personality. Or sadly they say, the ones having a hard time are addicts. That couldn't be further from the truth. It's not personality for 90 % of benzo people, it's physicality as the brain changed. Reg docs don't study truth in med school. The easier it is to come off, the less degree an individuals brain has changed to accomodate an easier time getting off the drug with less symptoms. Some, have no withdrawal. It's all genetics. Do not compare yourself with another. They do not have your brain. Make sense?

    It prevents functional brain injury for those with the genetics where the drug changes the brain. Myth "high dose and length of time establishes dependence". It's proven, low doses taken consistently changes the brain. Low doses in 7 days is enough to establish dependency with the right genetics. I've corresponded with one doctor that worked with Ashon in the UK. Dr. Malcolm Lader and he wrote many papers and did documentary's as well as her. It was never intended long term. Although not helping with tapers now, (Although giving you info here no problem and sending you to who can help I will always do) I'm somewhat active in the community with what is going on politically and in the Uk they are fighting for change with this. I can pm all info to anyone to circulate. All doctor sourced so you can get educated. I'm sorry so many are in this position.


    Anyway, I'm back to my questions pertaining to this board and CFS.
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,401
    Likes:
    740
    Salt Lake City
    HI Runner,

    I generate tapers for all who ask using a techique that worlks fpr viertually everybody. I can calculate it with a progam at any rate from 1% or 0.325% or anythijng else, per day. And it is all dry with no liquid with replenisher or anything like that. It is simple and predictable. I've helped thousands off in all drugs, and hundreds off of benzos, almost all with previous difficulty.
  3. Nielk

    Nielk

    Messages:
    5,075
    Likes:
    4,611
    Queens, NY
    I think that I'm at a point that I want/need to taper but, somehow I feel withdrawal symptoms just maintaining the level I'm on right now. I think my brain is screaming give me more of this stuff and I find it harder every day to resist.
  4. runner64

    runner64

    Messages:
    60
    Likes:
    1
    Hi Freddie! I'm not familiar with the term replenisher as far as benzo terms go. That said, I'm happy to hear that you can and have helped many!! I'm with Geraldine in that, there is more than one way to slowly reduce a benzodiazipine. Knowledge for everyone with this insidious drug is power. For some the dry cutting regardless of % can still being too extreme. Liquid titration for more accuracy and smaller amounts micro tapering is a great option. That's all. Options. More info for everyone so they can manage a taper that is comfortable for them, the better. Very nice to meet another helping people in this!! :)

    If you have withdrawal symptoms Neill you are in tolerance. Tolerance withdrawal. Can't achieve the desired effect on your regular dose and having withdrawal.

    I don't know what benzo you're on to tell you the half life Niell. A start to try and find stability, can be by multiple dosing. It's very important to establish as much stability as you can BEFORE tapering. Not hard to do if done properly. If you are on a shorter acting benzo, crossing to v is a good thing for many. It sedates some which wears off after a time. Many multiple dose EQUAL amounts of benzo daily to maintain equal blood levels. This can cut out some interdose or tolerance withdrawal. It may take a few days etc. What benzo are you on?
  5. Nielk

    Nielk

    Messages:
    5,075
    Likes:
    4,611
    Queens, NY
    I'm on 3mg Klonopin and Ambien CR12.5 each night. It's the Klonopin that I'm concerned about.
  6. runner64

    runner64

    Messages:
    60
    Likes:
    1
    Hi Neilk, I'm going to break this down for you so you know what's going on.

    Z-drugs are not chemically benzos but bind to the same receptor in the brain. Therefore they act like benzos, with the same problems as they target the same place in the brain. Sleeping pills, all the z-drugs, Sonato, Lunesta, Ambien, Imovane are the same. Z-drug is the generic name. Ambien is Zolpidem etc. Lunesta is Eszoplicone etc. Z-drugs have very short half lives so they can be typically harder to withdraw from as one can get hit with symptoms through the day before their next dose.

    Valium was the second benzo made. THIS benzo, is the drug used for equivalency's of each benzo.

    EG: 1 mg of klonopin = 20 mg of valium. (docs don't study this.)
    20 mg of ambien = 10 mg of valium.

    Benzo converter and z-drug equivalencies.
    http://www.benzodocs.com/benzo_converter.php
    http://www.non-benzodiazepines.org.uk/equivalents.html

    So this is what you are on.

    3 mg of klonopin = 60mg of valium equiv.
    12.5 mg of ambien= 1.25 valium equiv.

    You are on a total of 61.25 mg of valium equivalent.
    *If you stay on the Ambien, you basically have another benzo to taper. I will source all of this.

    They were never supposed to be prescribed benzo and z-drug together. He gave you the equivalent of 1.25 mg more of valium in the Ambien. Makes no sense, but they don't study this.

    What people do in these situations is combine the amounts of the benzo and z-drug to to one benzo, to taper off of one. Benadryl etc, or older second generation antihistamines Atarax, Vistaril which are prescription are used if sleep becomes challenging while tapering thought it doesn't for everyone.

    Here is an example of crossing over from 3mg of klonopin to a longer half life valium to taper from. I don't recommend her taper as it can be too big cuts 10 %'s while holding for two weeks or so only to repeat it can be too harsh for many. As illustrated above by Freddie and I and there are slower methods. If you're not familiar with Dr. Ashton and the Ashton Manuel, she studied people on benzos and had one of the only withdrawal clinics in the UK.
    http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzsched.htm#s6

    Why you switch to a longer life benzo.
    http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha02.htm#13

    Some direct taper off of klonopin as it's half life is 18-50. Valiums is 50-100 half life stretches more which helps managing symptoms. Valium crosses are good for those that reach tolerance.

    So direct off k or switching to v are options.

    Micro daily off of liquid to control taper with a lot of % accuracy is an option. This tricks the brain into thinking it's not losing a big chunk of benzo. At the end of the month, you can have the same reduction total of Ashton, but you don't cut and hold, and feel symptoms, cut and hold and feel symptoms. Make sense?

    As said, multiple dosing controls this as well. You find your legs as to what works for you.

    Here is what Prof. Heather Ashton said about the Z Drugs and Lunesta (eszopiclone) in her speech at the Maine Benzodiazepine Conference in Bangor Maine on October 12, 2005. NB that Lunesta is eszopiclone, a cousin of the three Z drugs: zolpidem (Ambien), zopiclone (Zimovane) and zaleplon (Sonata), and it is being marketed as safe for long-term use.
    http://www.benzosupport.org/the_z_drugs.htm

    "These are not chemically benzodiazepines but they bind to GABAreceptor complexes which are close to or actually coupled with benzodiazepine receptors. They are said to be more selective, bindingmainly to the a1 GABA receptor subtype which mediates the hypnotic effects of benzodiazepines. In practice they are not all that selective and have much the same actions as benzodiazepines. In the UK, the National Institute for Clinical Excellence (NICE), which advises the Health Service on optimum drug use, recommended that Z drugs should be used for short-term treatment only (2-4 weeks) and then only as second line treatments after benzodiazepines. They concluded that the Z drugs produced the same therapeutic and adverse effects as benzodiazepine hypnotics, including tolerance, dependence and abuse, and were also more expensive.

    I hope this helps somewhat. Here's a little intro about Ashton, she tells docs to let patients control tapers.
    http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha00.htm

    This talks about doctor failing to follow guidelines of 2-4 weeks and a bit of an overview of overprescribing.
    http://psychmedaware.org/OverprescribingBenzodiazepines.html
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,401
    Likes:
    740
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Runner,

    I don't use the shaving the pill or anything like that. Micro changes are the way off these drugs. Howecver, I use time variability. This doses several things. First the capsules are made up. Let's just use 1/8 as the dose for ease of description. The tablet is ground up and mixed with a dilutant that is comfortable with the person, so it can flour or cornmeal or rice flour. For 1/8 pill, mixed to 2 measured teaspoons, then measured our 1/4 teaspoon at a time into caps. So on a long life benzo a person might be on 2 doses a day. So that first day instead of 2 doses of 1/4 tablet, they take 4 doses of 1/8 tablet, 1 each six hours. The next day they move to 6 hours and 3 minutes apart. The next day 6 hours and 7 minutes apart and so on. That brings down the daily dose by 1%. Tolerance develops to the serum peak. Accomodation at the serum trough. SO the first thing that happens is that the peak comes down starting a readjustment but there is no pressure on the trough accomodation so it is comfortable. The variable time breaks up the conditioned response of the body to having the same dose at the same time (or interval) every day. And such a conditioned response does happen and can often be the casue of intradose withdrawal. SO first we staert breaking up the conditioned response by each day the doses getting farther and farther away from conditioned time. Then the peak is brough down while the trough is brought up and average serum level is a little higher witht he peak being lower. Then towards the second half of each cycle the trough starts coming down, from 9 hours out to 12 hours. Then at twelve hours interval, the dose per capsule is halved again and the number of doses doubled and another cycle is done. This can be done all the way out to 0.01mg daily dose of Clonazepam for a really sensitive person before going into the final part of the taper. This produces a smooth taper that has the changes in the body done in multiple sections instead of getting hit by the changes all at once. I have a program that generates a full list of the details of the taper, day by day. It works well.

    The "replenisher" remark is about the Ashton liquid valium taper wherein the amount of solution in the bottle is replaced with solution form the "b" bottle, thereby bringing down the level of drug in the stock bottle slowly and without calculations. It works also. However, the Ashton method doesn't break up the body's time relationship with the doses. Also, the rate of change of time between doses can be adjusted any time without changing the doses in the capsules. Those remain even for 71 days for a full cycle at 1% daily reduction.
  8. runner64

    runner64

    Messages:
    60
    Likes:
    1
    In the daily micro method TOLERANCE is avoided completely. It doesn't happen. And Karen specialized in getting people out of tolerance if in it, and wanting to taper off.

    I'm not quite sure I follow you in all senses. A person gets interdose withdrawal because the dose doesn't cover the 24 hour period. Multiple dosing equal amounts typically fixes that.

    We do agree on this Fredd. "This can be done all the way out to 0.01mg daily dose of Clonazepam for a really sensitive person before going into the final part of the taper."

    This is a daily micro amount that is used and successful on benzofreedom where Karen helps. They dose throughout like this from start to finish. It's much easier on the brain, to have the least amount of yo-yoing as possible. If they have trouble at .02 daily reduction, they go to point .01 daily reduction. The reductions are between .05 and .01. It's consistent and doesn't shock the brain.

    I was not "referring" to Ashtons liquid valium taper, however the liquid through that or fat milk is much more accurate for reduction.

    With a benzo for others that are unfamiliar. Layman. This is the "mechanism of action". What the drug does to the brain:

    1)The brain has GABA receptors. Our natural GABA chemical goes to the receptor and binds and calms the central nervous system for sleep etc.

    2)A benzo, acts like our natural GABA, takes over the job of our natural GABA chemical, and go to the same GABA receptor to bind and calm and that enhances sedation to the brain and central nervous system to aid in sleep etc.

    3)The GABA receptors in the brain end up dissolving as the brain gets lazy with the benzo doing all the work and it doesn't think it needs anymore GABA receptors. (It still has benzo and our natural GABA chemical, but no GABA receptors to bind to for sedation effect.)

    4)This "action" is called FUNCTIONAL brain change. And this means, if someone quits by cold turkey, or rapid taper, or fast taper, their brain doesn't have time to bring back the GABA receptors that had dissolved, which aided in calming the brain and cns.

    *Therefore the brain has lost the ability to calm itself AND the central nervous system and it leaves the brain and cns in a constant state of hyperexcitability. (This results in symptoms.)

    5)Even though the brain has natural GABA, without a GABA receptor to bind to calm, the natural GABA in our brains is then rendered ineffective needing the receptors (which dissolved) to bind with in order to sedate, to take the brain body out of hyperexcitability.

    6)The brain and central nervous system are then left in a state of hyperexcitability with these types of fast quits. It takes 6-18 months for this to heal and bring adequate amounts of receptor back.

    Ashton explains the mechanism of action. Not in laymens. The explanation goes beyond the first page.
    http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha01.htm#8
    ==
    What a taper does is by slow reduction, a minute of benzo comes out, the brain brings back a/some receptors that the benzo binds to aiding in keeping the brain and cns calm. Drug comes out, brain heals a bit more, more receptors come back.

    This cycle continues until off the drug.
    ==

    THIS is what isn't studied in the medical community today. And why many people reinstate when taken off too quickly.
    The prescribers therefore media says people reinstate due to addictive personality. As you can see that is not the case for a benzodiazipine person. They can't handle being in constant withdrawal which can last for months.

    They can be in "chronic withdrawal" for 6-18 months losing this action of brain function. Which is in essence, recovering from a brain and central nervous system injury. Remember, this "action" of functional change is unique to a benzo.

    The brain and cns, have lost the ability to calm and will be in a state of hyperexcitability for quite some time. NO other drug does this. Alcohol goes to the same GABA receptor like a benzo and z-drugs (sleeping pills). BUT, the GABA receptors DON'T dissolve like they did with the benzo. So the brain function, hasn't changed to this EXTREME degree from alcohol.

    Therefore, people detoxing off of these other substances do NOT have these "functional brain" changes.Their brain and central nervous system is NOT left in a state of hyperexcitability.

    This is why benzo people are still sick off the drug quitting quickly, and others from different drugs with abrupt quits are playing basketball after a month or so. And ironically, benzo people have a "physical" ONLY dependence to the drug, unlike many of these others who have a psychological dependence to alcohol or other substances. Very misunderstood.
    ==

    A person gets withdrawal anxiety, because the body overcompensates for the sedation of the drug, by overworking certain body parts. The adrenals work harder and faster to compensate for the sedation shooting vast amounts of cortisol, and off the benzo abruptly, that will continue until the brain has healed further. 6-18 months.

    Now you can see how a person "in tolerance ON the drug" can get panic or anxiety and think it's their natural emotion, when it's simply the drug has lost effect at the dose, and the cortisol is shooting from overactive adrenals simply because they're pumping more to overcompensate for benzo sedation, and the brain is losing is calming mechanism.

    Often a prescriber doesn't recognize this and the patient is told, they are developing an anxiety disorder. As you can see it's not true. It's from the action of the drug. This is one of the "traps" that encourages long term prescribing.

    This is also why people can't sleep when they have quit the benzo abruptly, the brain has lost the ability to calm, that puts people to sleep. 6-18 months to recover.

    *Now you can see why people need to slow "taper" off of this drug.

    This is also why one eventually STOPS sleeping ON a benzo. Even on the drug, there is no calming ability having reached tolerance on the drug, and no GABA receptors (they dissolved) for the benzo to bind to for the calming action to sedate. Sleep stops on the drug. Catch22. (Functional brain change.)

    This is how people unfortunately end up encouraged by prescribers, on more and more benzo, and z-drugs with benzos, or two separate benzos together. Remember, this is not studied in medical school. No mechanism of action of this drug is studied. This is what is being addressed by my friends in UK in parliament.

    As well benzos and z-drugs can strip the mylin sheath protective coating of the nerves. With the brain and central nervous system in a state of hyperexcitability from a fast quit, they can cause burning symptoms etc. until healed further. So neuropathy when tapering too fast, or abrupt quit. Head pressure all sorts of strange symptoms. Abrupt quits can cause benzodiazpine withdrawal syndrome which is a long chronic withdrawal where one gets 50- 100 symptoms coming off. Ashton describes timelines of healing here. Fast quits can cause symptoms to go protracted. Beyond 18 months.
    http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha03.htm#27.

    Dr. Heather Ashton explains what happens to receptors after long term use. This does happen, with shorter timelines depending on genetics as well. Scroll down to the heading. This applies to z-drugs like Ambien, Lunesta, Sonota, Imovane, then as well. Same brain target area. Same mechanism of action.
    http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashsupp11.htm

    "Long-term effects of benzodiazepines

    One mechanism which might be involved in long-term (and possibly permanent) effects of benzodiazepines is an alteration in the activity of benzodiazepine receptors in brain GABA neurones. These receptors down-regulate (become fewer) as tolerance to benzodiazepines develop with chronic use. Such down-regulation is a homeostatic response of the body to the constant presence of the drugs. Since benzodiazepines themselves enhance the actions of GABA, extra benzodiazepine receptors are no longer needed, so many are, in effect, discarded. These down-regulated receptors are absorbed into neurones where, over time, they undergo various changes including alterations in gene expression. When these receptors are slowly reinstated after drug withdrawal, they may return in a slightly altered form. They may not be quite so efficient as before in increasing the actions of GABA, the natural 'calming' neurotransmitter. As a result, the brain may be generally less sensitive to GABA and the individual is left with heightened central nervous system excitability and increased sensitivity to stress. Molecular biologists point out that changes in gene expression can be very slow, or even unable, to reverse. (The action of benzodiazepines at GABA receptors is explained more fully in the Manual).
    ========

    I am writing a book, with falsified clinical trial data info among many things, explaining what people are not told when given benzos and z-drugs. It's an easy read, informative, will help those in tolerance that don't even know they are in tolerance to understand what is going on. It will show them where to go to taper off humanely. Family members and loved ones will understand what they are going through and why. I got sick on this drug and coming off. I am now off. My book will generate awareness. (I don't and have never had anxiety. It was over prescribing. I was simply taking it for sleep and now in hindsight see it must have been implants.)

    I hope some of this information gives some of you a better understanding of these drugs.
  9. Esperanza

    Esperanza

    Messages:
    91
    Likes:
    15
    England
    Just want to say thanks to everyone for the support and incredible insight in to benzo problems especially from runner and freddd.

    I have managed to get stable on 17.5mgs Valium dosing three times a day and am going to do the micro taper suggested by runner who directed me to a forum where people can get help with this method.

    I hope everyone else who has had these problems with benzos gets through to the other side. For me, benzos whilst initially very helpful for some of my more severe ME symptoms ultimately caused many more problems than they originally helped with. I WILL get off of the d*mn things or die trying after what I have been through with these pills!

    Especially a message for Nielk - I am concerned about you and would suggest that you might try to do the same as me (try to get off using the micro taper or Freddd's method) even though it seems daunting when we are so ill - you don't want to end up in severe tolerance as I did - I went through two years of utter h*ll from it. I understand that whilst still ill, it is a difficult decision to get off but tolerance w/d to benzos for me has been as bad as the illness itself (and I am very ill with ME, believe me). I'm only saying this to you because I don't want you to end up in the same mess as I did. Get help before things get out of your control please.

    Love to all,

    Esperanza x
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,401
    Likes:
    740
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Runner64,

    I believe you know how to parrot information and cut and paste a whole lof of stuff.

    In the daily micro method TOLERANCE is avoided completely. It doesn't happen. And Karen specialized in getting people out of tolerance if in it, and wanting to taper off.


    This is total nonsense. People who are accomodated to benzos and other drugs already have tolerance to the drug. The sense you use this is total nonsense. You don't know what you are doing or what you are talking about. You sound dangerous. I have no idea about the website itself or the people running it.
  11. Sammy

    Sammy

    Messages:
    84
    Likes:
    10
    +1 re baclofen

    Also I am so sorry to hear about your struggles, Esperanza, I often tell myself: nothing lasts for ever - good or bad
  12. Nielk

    Nielk

    Messages:
    5,075
    Likes:
    4,611
    Queens, NY
    Has anyone tried a deotx clinic to get off Klonopin?
  13. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    Messages:
    6,935
    Likes:
    4,048
    australia (brisbane)
    It must be hard tapering off klono. What dose are you down to now. Maybe u need to stay at your last current comfortable dose for abit longer. I would think its going to take a long time to taper off 3mg completely, its going to take alot of patients. Are you using any antihistamines to help with sleep as u taper? Any sort of sleep deprivation is a bugger for us.

    good luck,
    cheers!!
  14. Nielk

    Nielk

    Messages:
    5,075
    Likes:
    4,611
    Queens, NY
    heapsreal,

    I haven't gotten anywhere. I', still om 3mg Klonopin, Ambien CR 12.5 and 2 tylenol pm every night. My doc gave me a medicine to take and build up in my system so that I can attempt to taper Klonopin. This new med has been a disaster. I'm working on tapering off this new one with terrible side effects. 3 separate experts have tpld me to do it in a hospital setting. I was just asking if anyone had experience with that.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,401
    Likes:
    740
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Neilk,

    I have known of people who have tried Klonopin withdrawals in detox clinics. They were a disaster experience. They have to push it to happen far faster than makes a comfortable taper possible. A successful and comfortable klonopin taper from doses like 3 mg takes about 2 years at 1% per day and 4 years at 1/2 of 1% per day. It takes about as long to do the last 1/10 of mg as all the rest put together if it is to done without triggerring protracted withdrawal syndrome.
  16. Nielk

    Nielk

    Messages:
    5,075
    Likes:
    4,611
    Queens, NY
    Hi Fredd,

    So, you are saying 6 years and then another 6 for the last 1/10th?
  17. Nielk

    Nielk

    Messages:
    5,075
    Likes:
    4,611
    Queens, NY
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,401
    Likes:
    740
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Neilk,

    It takes 342 days to go from 3mg to 1/10mg at minus 1% per day. Then it takes another 423 days to get below 0.003mg or therabouts. These are based on a mathematical model. It is acheivable. I have had hundreds use tapers off every benzo and thousands withdraw from opioids or SSRIs and other such meds.

    All I was saying above is that a taper that goes half as fast takes twice as long.

    I hadn't read that Florida places website before. While I find myself agreeing with many of the general things they say I also don't know of any medications or nutrients or hormones or amino acids that can do what they are claiming. I also disagree with some specifics.

    I want to be clear that normally an addict oriented detox is fast because somebody else is paying for it. The purpose is to get the drugs out of a person under paid supervision because they are incapable of following a schedule, the nature of addiction. They claim to be able to do that with comfort for a large number of different kinds of drugs.

    I do agree that certain vitamins and other substances, ie essentially the Active B12 protocol with various additions, will quiet many of the benzo hypersensitive neurological withdrawal responses. I don't know of anything that allows it to be rapid. I don't know what they use though they talk about a lot things that could be useful.


    With Dr. Sponaugles anesthesiology expertise and his hand picked, high quality ICU nurses, we can safely provide you with a painless Klonopin detox, no matter how high you daily dose.

    With the above sentence and a 3 day hospital stay I would be inclined to say that he found a way to do a rapid induced withdrawal under general anesthesia for benzos such as was developed for opioids some years back.

    In that case the risks are those of general anesthesia. Interesting thing here is that the man with whom I developed the taper protocol I use here for benzos taught CME courses in drug dependence and withdrawal. He died suddenly from anesthesia shock just before the begininng of reconstructive surgery after cancer. I would expect 3 days of ICU costs in addition to the 1 week inpatient or 2 week outpatient followup. Ten years ago forced opioid withdrawal under general anesthesia was $20,000 to $40,000. I don't know what it is now.

    The risks one takes to deal with addiction, which is a life threatening disease, might not be the same as the risks one is willing to take for what can be a routine, if tedious, withdrawal. Two years is a long time to take medications on a reasonably strict schedule. It was no bother for me as my life is already run on a pretty strict schedule for meds and vitamins. For me to escape paradoxical folate deficiency appears to require as strict a schedule as a benzo withdrawal.
  19. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,135
    Likes:
    498
    Seattle
    Florida Detox SCAM...

    From what I've read the dear Dr. gets away with this so-called fast detox by switching patients onto ANOTHER drug -- and opiate called Subutex -- which some claim is even MORE difficult to taper off of. How he's getting away with this is beyond me, but check out this page where former patients rate his services:

    http://www.insiderpages.com/doctors/Marvin-L-Sponaugle-MD-Tarpon-Springs
  20. Nielk

    Nielk

    Messages:
    5,075
    Likes:
    4,611
    Queens, NY
    Thanks Fredd and dannybex,
    I'm going to look into it. It figures that something that sounds too good to be true.....

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page