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Desperately need help with failed Klonopin/Valium taper - life is a mess

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Bunchy, Jan 8, 2012.

  1. Nielk

    Nielk

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    Thanks Fredd,

    So what you are saying about taking it/ dividing it at different times of the day makes sense to me. Right now I'm taking the 3 mg all at once in the evening. Should I divide it throughout the day even before attempting to reduce?


    Esperanza- I hope you are doing well. I don't want to high jack your thread. But, I'm getting good practical advice here. Do you want me to start a separate thread?
  2. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Freddd answered your question as to how it's done, but you need to contact him via PM to set up a proper schedule.

    This topic, I think, is so important to overall health, that I don' t think anyone will view this as a hi-jacking (hope others don't disagree :) ). If it helps disemminate information, it's a benefit to all with interest in this topic, (again, I hope).
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Nielk,

    Dividing it into 4 doses (easier than 3 unless you have suitable sized measuring spoons) will actually start the withdrawal process by breaking up the conditioned response to the single dose all at once at a fixed time. It will also reduce the serum peak starting the withdrawal process. This alone can take several days to stabilize.

    After my healing had progressed to a certain point, about 9-10 months into the process, I started tapering benzos, Comapazine, reduction taper of morphine down to 60% of former dose, albuterol, theophylin and dilantin. I also was able to not need to use antihistamines. After living on antihistamines most of my life I haven't had a single one in 8 years. If the glutathione trial had been during allergy season I would have needed them again. Suddenly stopping an anti seizure med has been known to trigger seizures so I wanted to be very careful.
  4. Nielk

    Nielk

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    Hi Fredd,

    So, I understand that some healing has to happen before trying to taper off the Benzos. I am also on antihistamines EVERY single day of my life. It's been this way, for the past 20 years. It would be really nice not to have to be dependent on them. It's just one more thing that's weighing me down.

    I'll be very honest with you. I don't understand the methylation problem nor the problem with folic acid. The Supplement list that I have written to you, I have started on about three weeks ago and I seem to be feeling a little stronger. Yet, they do contain folic acid. The methyl B12 sub-lingual that I'm taking which contains 400 mcg of folic acid is actually giving me more energy. How do I know, if I have a problem with folic acid? Is it something that I would be feeling right away or after some time? A practitioner who is advising me, says that folic acid is shown to help people with depression. Actually, some practitioners are treating people with depression with high doses of folic acid. I'm not questioning your knowledge, I'm just saying do we ALL have this problem? I know that I need the B12 because my blood work shows that I'm low. It's the folic acid that I don't know about. Dr. Derek Enlander treats his patients with a protocol of weekly injections of Hepapressin, Magnesium, Folic Acid, B12, Calphosan and Glutathione. Is it okay because it's given as a shot? I'm really confused.
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Nielk,

    I do understand your confusion. Let me start from the bottom of you post.

    A practitioner who is advising me, says that folic acid is shown to help people with depression. Actually, some practitioners are treating people with depression with high doses of folic acid

    That is probably only sloppy language. High doses of Metafolin (l-methylfolate) is being used very successfully to treat depression. Folic acid doesn't do squat for those folks who can process folic acdi to methylfolate becasue there is a maximum amount that can convert, about 1mg. Tests show that Deplin helps depression. http://www.deplin.com/depression/ . At it's dose level, 7.5mg it causes 5 times as much methylfolate to be in the blood as the same dose of folic acid. In some people who can't convert it and at 5mg dose level of folic acid it is found that folic acid can block methylfolate and CAUSE depression.


    I'm just saying do we ALL have this problem?

    Nobody knows. For some people the blocking of folic acid appears to start at 1000mcg or less. For other it may take 5mg or more and might not ever do it. Nobody has run any trials. However there is at least some evidence that the problem is dose related.


    methyl B12 sub-lingual that I'm taking which contains 400 mcg of folic acid is actually giving me more energy

    Methylb12 without folic acid will do that. A 5 star brand will do it a lot more. The folic acid is irrevelant in that generally.

    How do I know, if I have a problem with folic acid?

    By getting healing established with Metafolin and then stopping and starting folic acid a few times and seeing if there was a difference.

    I am also on antihistamines EVERY single day of my life. It's been this way, for the past 20 years.

    Folate deficiency and/or mb12 deficiency can cause very large increases in allergic reactions. Either one or both in deficiency can trigger allergies, MCS, hypersensitivity to all sorts of things that are not allergic reactions and very hair trigger and impaired immune response. How long on folic acid? Total dose of folic acid daily?

    it something that I would be feeling right away or after some time?

    Either. That appears to be part of the dose dependency. Lower doses can block mb12 only after the unprocessed folic acid builds up over time.

    Look at the thread off the methylation menu requesting people who have identifed the problem and read the symtpoms and see if they match your experience at all. Answer the question I asked an it might point at it or not depending upon the answersm, how long on folic acid and things lije that

    protocol of weekly injections of Hepapressin, Magnesium, Folic Acid, B12, Calphosan and Glutathione.

    Glutathione might also cause a problem with folate deficiency. That is an even bigger unknown. Same thing though. Get healing going well without glutathione, then if there is any reason to try it see if it casues a problem. This too may be dose and frequency related. Of course after methylation is establish your body will make it'[s own glutathione so it is unneeded with good healing.


    The number one thing is get the 5 star mb12, adb12 and metafolin going with the necessary cofactors and get the healing going and observe your allergy and inflammation symptoms. Then if you want to see if you can crash the healing by starting folic acid try folic acid.

    I'm trying to put together a questionaire that might be of help to people in figuring it put based on their symptoms. Do you have IBS and nausea and things like that? Do you have sores at the corners of your mouth? Do these symptoms come and go together?
  6. Nielk

    Nielk

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    I have actually Crohn's disease which has been in remission for a while but, I do have symptoms of IBS. I don't usually have nausea. except when I have a bad headache. I have chronic sinus /allergy problems that at times are pretty severe. I also suffer from migraine-like severe headaches pretty often.
    Thanks by the way Fredd for the time you spend answering all my questions.
  7. Bunchy

    Bunchy

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    Thanks everyone :)

    I think this is an important thread so Nielk and others feel free to discuss the whole topic and related issues further :)

    I am currently trying very hard to put my marriage back together - I just hope it's not too late. Time will tell...

    I am stabilizing a little (I hope) with the w/d symptoms the past day or two.

    I'll update properly next week.

    Love Esperanza x
    taniaaust1 likes this.
  8. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    good luck, take care
  9. GhostGum

    GhostGum Senior Member

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  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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  11. Advocate

    Advocate Senior Member

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    successful klonopin taper

    Hi Esperanza,

    In 2008, I helped someone taper off Klonopin, using water titration. The taper took 15-1/2 months and was successful. Here are the benefits the "someone" listed when the taper was complete.

    Here's what I ordered before we started, and I used these things every other day for the entire time.

    http://pharmex.com/osb/itemdetails.cfm?ID=1391
    MS75222.jpg


    I ordered a couple of glass cylinders similar to these, which are available at
    http://www.stevespanglerscience.com/product/graduated-cylinders

    WCYL-002-250x250-1.jpg

    And one of these, which cost about $16.
    http://www.walmart.com/ip/Hamilton-...l-Lid/5924588?findingMethod=rr#Specifications

    Screenshot2012-01-18at20551PM.png

    Note: Once she started tapering, she never again raised the dose.

    Esperanza, I'll PM you the URL for a website that gives the precise details of this person's taper (inluding a few difficulties, which were overcome). For privacy reasons I'm not giving the URL here, but would be delighted to send it by PM to anyone who is interested.
    The Spitfire likes this.
  12. Advocate

    Advocate Senior Member

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    Hi Nielk,

    I tried to send you a PM, but your mailbox is full. Thought you'd want to know.

    Advocate (Flo)
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Flo,

    Sounds like you are doing a variation on the liquid valium taper, shall we call it a variation on the Ashton taper? Personally I found the dry variation works very well and the variable interval taper to be more effective than a fixed interval taper becasue it breaks up the various parts of accomodation and handles them separately taking physical conditioned response into consideration, tolerance at peak and accomodation at trough..
  14. Zuriel

    Zuriel

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    Freddd, Can I PM you for information on benzo tapers? Have been having severe withdrawl symptoms so bad I had to bite on a small folded towel, plus lots of brain firing, all because I refused to increase the dosage. I'm on 125mcg in the morning, 125mcg at noon time and 250mcg before bed, for the past 2 years. I would love to get this out of my life and replace with something non addictive. Thanks.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Zuriel

    Yes. And go up on dose enough to stop the withdrawal as the first step and then lets do it without problems a different way than you have ben trying. It's important to stop the withdrwal effects.
  16. GhostGum

    GhostGum Senior Member

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    I did not say it was any good and you have already clearly explained what the best way to taper is, but I thought some of ideas on what the best supplements might be in helping coming off could be valuable.
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Ghostgum,

    Perhaps they would be. I'm not familiar with those. I was just trying to add a cautionary note out of prudence. I've worked with a lot of people very damaged by some things mentioned on websites in just those ways
  18. GhostGum

    GhostGum Senior Member

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    Hi Fred.

    Maybe I should have been a bit more clear than just posting the link, I just find it a good site to read up on supplements since they know their stuff very well there. The magnesium is a good idea though, commonly used for ME/CFS anyway; not sure about the other ones but the OP in that discussion seems to be having success.
  19. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    Neilk,

    In my opinion when you feel much worse coming off of a med than you ever felt before you started the med, it's probably withdrawal and not just your own body's usual symptoms. I don't agree with what I've read of Dr. Cheney's idea on this issue. This is my personal opinion. I also believe any med that causes physical tolerance will also cause some withdrawal.

    This is unrelated to your comment, but I also think addiction and dependence are not interchangeable. It seems to me people often use the term addiction when in reality they are describing a physical dependence, which in my mind is not the same thing as addiction.
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Ocean,

    I missed this at the time. So I want to combine this in one answer.

    Clonazepam has some characteristics that are unique amongst the benzos. I have been doing tapers myself on medicaly prescribed drugs since 1970 and helping people do them since about 1990 or so. I was in the phase III study for a synthetic pain med. The study went 6 months. Different people entered the study over a period and I was in a later batch. I was told that there were some people having difficulty getting off of it. I asked about tapering. They said each person could design their own with a memeber of staff. I did, we did. I tapered and it was reasonable though I also learned quitting even a small amoint of medication can be very unpleasant for some drugs. sSome have longer tails than others. Klonazepam is accomofdationg and requires a long slwo taper. Accomodation happens to everybody on certain drugs. Addiciton is a something a few have, 1% of pain patients for instance. The drug becomes irresitable and uncontrollable to the addict. So there is a major difference. An accomodated person merely has to follow a schedule to withdraw and if slow enough no problem. An addicted person can't take the specified dose on schedule. They are not the same thing.

    With clonozepam sometimes some other characteristics pop up. Some people have withdrawal episodes between doses of an accomodated level for instance. Some have withdrawal at a 2% drop. Usually not. Usually even a 2% schedule can make TOO MUCH DIFFERENCE FOR SOME. So there methods slower and that break up withdrawal into several parts.

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