The Real ME: A Stock Photography Resource for the Media
We’ve all seen them in the news stories about ME/CFS: the guy in a suit at the office, yawning; the beautiful woman sitting at her desk with her immaculate make-up and elegantly coiffed hair, hand to her head and looking slightly pained.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Dehydration, hypoglycemia, aldosterone & cortisol

Discussion in 'Hormones' started by picante, Feb 5, 2016.

  1. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    763
    Likes:
    877
    Helena, MT USA
    For a long time, I've thought that my adrenal fatigue is really adrenal misregulation.

    Many of my usual symptoms are those of low cortisol and low aldosterone, but I know from a cortisol saliva test that my cortisol can shoot up when I exercise. The problem is that what goes up doesn't come down -- for a day or two. After exercise, my polyuria is worse for a day (at least). And the high cortisol does not give me energy; it feels just like neuro-exhaustion.

    It seems like I've finally discovered the connection between my immune system imbalance and these symptoms, although I'm going to need some cytokine tests to confirm it:
    On Stop the Thyroid Madness, there is a section called How Does Inflammation Inhibit Cortisol?
     
    aaron_c, ahmo and heapsreal like this.
  2. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    763
    Likes:
    877
    Helena, MT USA
    Lately I've been desperate to find some way to keep water in my body; I've been losing weight again, and it's mostly water. But I just learned that my years-long habit of just adding sea salt isn't the ticket:
     
  3. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    763
    Likes:
    877
    Helena, MT USA
    If anyone has suggestions on how to rehydrate, please post them.

    Has anyone done immune rebalancing, and has it helped with your adrenal function?

    I've started taking Citicoline, and I already take B1 and E. I don't tolerate licorice well. I'm trying a rehydration drink made of water, salt, maple syrup and fresh lime juice.

    I start out my day weighing about 117 lbs., then by bedtime I'm around 120 lbs. Then I get up to pee 3-4 times and I wind up parched, even though I'm drinking 2 or more 12-oz. glasses of water/rehydration drink at night.

    Nighttime is usually when I have low cortisol symptoms, too, such as hypoglycemia.
     
    Violeta likes this.
  4. roller

    roller wiggle jiggle

    Messages:
    451
    Likes:
    214
    coconut water probably one of the best electrolytic, hydrating drinks available (by nature)
     
    picante likes this.
  5. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,271
    Likes:
    5,317
    The only thing that has improved my symptoms of polyuria/dehydration and hypoglycemia has been to treat my underlying enterovirus infection. I don't think it has anything to do with adrenal function. When measured, my aldosterone and renin levels were actually quite high, almost abnormal. I believe the issue is with the hypothalamus. Low ADH output and dysregulation of blood sugar levels.

    The only thing that I could do prior to this was drink 3+ liters of water a day and eat constant high protein/fat meals.
     
    picante, Violeta and Never Give Up like this.
  6. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,631
    Likes:
    961
    What did you do to treat you underlying enterovirus infection? I understand and agree about the hypothalamus/dehydration part, but would you mind expanding on it's connection to hypoglycemia and needing to eat high protein/fat meals, because while that type of diet helps me in so many ways I run into difficulty after a couple of weeks. Thanks
     
    picante likes this.
  7. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    763
    Likes:
    877
    Helena, MT USA
    How did you find out you had an enterovirus infection?

    The articles I quoted talk about the signals to the hypothalamus, including cytokines. Do you know which cytokines were high for you?

    I've just taken a look at my last 13 years of hormone tests, and I've only found one for aldosterone, which was mid-range in 2009. I have no renin tests.

    My blood glucose is always 60 when I'm fasting, and usually 80 when I've had something to eat before going to the lab (say, 90-120 minutes before). It has been this way for as long as I've been getting tests (20 years). (I've had ME/CFS for 23 years, triggered by EBV.)

    I found an insulin test from 2009 as well. The post-prandial insulin was measured in the noon saliva sample of a 24-hour cortisol test. No doubt I followed instructions and had a carby meal an hour before.
    Fasting ˂3 [3-12 uIU/mL]
    Post-prandial ˂3 [5-20 uIU/mL]

    Strangely, they've marked only the second result as "depressed". I do not know how to interpret this low-glucose, low-insulin phenomenon. It's certainly not insulin resistance!
    @Gondwanaland
     
  8. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,329
    Likes:
    6,509
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    Simplistic and possibly useless: adrenal glandular worked for me, when I could no longer tolerate licorice or low dose cortef. And if the problem is hypothalamus-centered, hypothalamus glandular also gave me near immediate relief from the worst of my symptoms at the time. I was certainly having aldosterone issues at the time, don't know about any of your other issues affecting me at the time.
     
    dannybex and picante like this.
  9. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    763
    Likes:
    877
    Helena, MT USA
    Thanks, @ahmo, I have some Standard Process dessicated adrenal. It might be a good idea to re-order, though, since the expiration date is July 2010! ;) I also have something homeopathic called "Pineal Pituitary Hypothalamus Drops", which expires in July 2016.

    Sheesh, sometimes I think we need a supplement exchange. Then I could get rid of all my excess Enz. Therapy MeB12, which rots my teeth and my guts, too (thanks to the mannitol and fructose).
     
  10. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    763
    Likes:
    877
    Helena, MT USA
    I managed to scan the cortisol curve from the day I had the insulin results.

    This was done the day after I went X-C skiing for 90 minutes (which I can no longer do), and I was having my period (I was 52). Either of those two things could trigger a day or two of migraine/nausea/exhaustion, so I was in bed. At the time, I didn't know this was post-exertional neuro-exhaustion. I was just trying to figure out what was happening with my adrenals to cause these horrid migraines.

    IOW, it wasn't a "normal" day. Cortisol was off the chart at noon. My "normal day" cortisol is a blunted curve.

    Cortisol Curve - Post-exertional.jpg
     
  11. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

    Messages:
    7,954
    Likes:
    12,761
    Cornwall, UK
    I haven't read all the messages yet, but is Acu-Cell a reliable site? I ask because on the page you linked to it says
    What do they mean by potassium levels falling below those of sodium? Using the UK units, serum sodium should be 133-146 mmol per litre and serum potassium should be 3.5-5.3 mmol per litre, hence many times lower than sodium.

    Re sodium causing water retention, this may be the case for some, but as a fellow-polyuric, I seem to just pass excessive sodium and fluid in urine (not just excess), thus ending up dehydrated and hyponatraemic (sometimes seriously hyponatraemic). As this problem appeared to be exacerbated by an ACE inhibitor, I guess that it is due to low aldosterone, and may be a lifelong renal salt wasting condition. (I have always craved salt.)

    I am also hypertensive, and have avoided licorice because it can increase blood pressure.

    Perhaps all will become clear when I read the rest of the thread tomorrow!
     
  12. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    763
    Likes:
    877
    Helena, MT USA
    I agree that is not well phrased. Usually he's talking about the balance between two minerals, and what happens when one mineral gets too high relative to the other.

    This is pretty much what he says about adding more salt: that for some people it will drive aldosterone even lower. I tend to think I have renal salt wasting, too. I didn't like much salt until my metabolism crashed from EBV. Then I started craving it.
    Wow! Can you have low aldosterone and hypertension? I didn't know that was possible. My BP was a steady 90/60 until I added salt, and then it went even higher from starting T3 (thyroid).
     
    MeSci likes this.
  13. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    763
    Likes:
    877
    Helena, MT USA
    I'm thinking of trying this:
     
    Gondwanaland, ahmo and Crux like this.
  14. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,101
    Likes:
    767
    USA
    Hi @picante ,

    I've been reading myself to utter confusion about Nitric Oxide, (NO), and its effects.

    I don't have a grip on it, but when it's Elevated from; Infections, intake of nitrates, arginine, or citrulline, it can cause problems.

    I've seen more about the side effects of taking NO donors, (body building sites), than medical papers. People report headaches and having to pee a lot.

    Although NO is a necessary compound/neurotransmitter, too much can be down right neurotoxic. ( I think its been causing my migraines too.)

    Here are a few articles : one concerns Aldosterone, which can be stimulated with increased serum potassium, etc.

    Another article is about elevated NO and ACE in a group of dehydrated folks. The third is about ACE.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldosterone
    http://www.bjbms.org/archives/2007-1/33-36.pdf
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angiotensin-converting_enzyme
     
    Gondwanaland, Violeta and picante like this.
  15. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,271
    Likes:
    5,317
    Equilibrant, inosine, lamivudine, and amantadine so far.

    There are glucosensing neurons in the hypothalamus that are supposed to help control hypoglycemic counterregulation. My guess is that this response becomes blunted. High carb meals will cause large spikes in blood sugar and then large spikes in insulin. Blood sugar will then drop without adequate opposition and so we get reactive hypoglycemia basically. Fat and protein won't spike blood sugar as much thus not so much insulin response keeping blood sugar levels more stable without needing the brain to counter the insulin response as much.
     
    ahmo, picante and Violeta like this.
  16. picante

    picante Senior Member

    Messages:
    763
    Likes:
    877
    Helena, MT USA
    From the first article, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldosterone
    :eek: Since I'm now taking 1200-2100 mg of K per day, you would think I'd have higher aldosterone! I'd better get it tested. (Potassium actually makes me pee even more, though.)

    I don't understand what all these enzymes do, but according to my Sterling report, I only have one snp that's homozygous: rs1056836 (CYP1B1 L432V).
     
  17. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,271
    Likes:
    5,317
    Stomach biopsy test from Dr. Chia's lab and serology tests from ARUP Labs.

    Sadly no I haven't had access to much cytokine testing.

    ME patients with OI tend to have normal renin and lower aldosterone levels according to one study. I'm not sure why mine were so high, though they were measured very early in my illness.

    Yow, I think I would be in a coma if my BG slipped into the 60s. I start getting symptoms when I drop into the 70s.

    That is strange.
     
    picante likes this.
  18. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,631
    Likes:
    961
    Thanks for that explanation. I had not thought that the hypothalamus had anything to do with blood glucose levels. (Hypoglycemia was one of my first symptoms at onset of chronic fatigue.) But I definitely had the lack of vasopressin and did realize that was traceable to the hypothalamus. I need to look up the relationship between vasopressin and aldosterone.

    At one point when I had been reading about this I remember seeing that dopamine was involved in the loop. I don't know if that means anything in this conversation or not, but thought I would mention it.
     
    picante likes this.
  19. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,271
    Likes:
    5,317
    Same here. I had a small attack the night before onset and then a large one the day of.

    They both help control water balance, but have differing effects on osmolarity. This video might be helpful.
     
    Violeta likes this.
  20. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,631
    Likes:
    961
    I just wanted to add that the difficulty I have with a high fat/protein low carb diet seems to have something with reduced potassium intake, so while it helps in some ways, some things get worse.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page