1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
ME/CFS: A disease at war with itself
We can all agree that ME/CFS is a nasty disease, particularly in its severe form, but there are abundant nasty diseases in the world. What is unique and particularly confounding about our disease is that so much controversy surrounds it, and not only surrounds it, but invades it too.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Debunking the paleo diet

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by justy, Jul 2, 2014.

  1. justy

    justy Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,679
    Likes:
    2,898
    U.K
    Really great TED talk about the 'myth' of the Paleo diet.
    She comes to some good conclusions about the 'modern diet'



    Modern ideas of the paleo diet didn't work for me at all and made my gut considerably worse, so I like her take on wether or not what we think of as Paleo really is.
     
    zzz and PhoenixDown like this.
  2. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

    Messages:
    714
    Likes:
    2,090
    @justy her later conclusions are more or less in line with the paleo diet. I think she misses the difference in fat quality of wild game vs feed raised livestock though. Her debunking is really the debunking of the popular view of the paleo diet which sees it as meat diet.

    Disclaimer: maybe my view of the paleo diet is just different.
     
  3. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,294
    Likes:
    5,603
    Im pretty suspicious of almost all diet advice. Very little solid research here. Try to eat a bit of fruit and veg, and not too many desserts... other than that, who knows? Probably best just eating what seems to make you feel best.
     
    NK17, Valentijn and vamah like this.
  4. justy

    justy Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,679
    Likes:
    2,898
    U.K
    I think her conclusions are in line with a more 'natural for humans diet' which some might read as paleo. But she does say quite unequivocally that paleo man DID eat grains, including Barley and also ate tubers AND wouldn't have been able to eat any fats other than those naturally occurring in the small amounts of meat they ate and from nuts.

    I think the point is that she is blowing apart the myth that there was a 'specific paleo diet' and that we could try and eat it now. I agree that healthy paleo relies on vegetables and fruits as much as meat, but she specifically says that depending on where you lived, man would have eaten anywhere from lots of meat (arctic) to very small amounts of very lean meat like rabbits and birds with the emphasis on fruits, leaves, legumes, seeds, and grains and tubers (tropical/temperate)

    I really think the main point she makes is that Paleo man (and of course woman) DID eat grains, legumes and tubers, and that the so called 'modern paleo diet' is no where near what paleo peoples actually ate, which she illustrates well towards the end with her slides of 'natural' versus 'farmed' vegetables etc. I particularly liked the part about eggs - which are considered a highly paleo food, but which would have been difficult to collect, very small and highly seasonal (maybe a few weeks a year)
     
    SOC, zzz, Valentijn and 1 other person like this.
  5. justy

    justy Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,679
    Likes:
    2,898
    U.K
    Sorry @A.B. - I meant to agree with you that she was mainly looking at the popluar view of paleo, I ended up on a rant above - sorry.
     
  6. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

    Messages:
    714
    Likes:
    2,090
    No problem :thumbsup:
     
  7. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,872
    Likes:
    1,532
    Florida
    This was debunked by the Paleo experts if you google it. This is actually posted on PR too.

    Imho some of the people fighting in the "diet wars" just do it to stir up controversy. They appear to like to argue. I prefer those who keep things peaceful and truthful.

    Tc .. x
     
    Soundthealarm21 and RL_sparky like this.
  8. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

    Messages:
    8,379
    Likes:
    7,456
    UK
    That was interesting. I'm following the Paleo diet (Chris Kresser's version) and one of the ideas is that legumes and grains only came into the diet with agriculture 10,000 years ago and so you should exclude them (at least in the early stages of the diet). The speaker provides evidence that legumes and grains were, in fact, part of the diet of paleolithic people.

    I wonder if the idea is that legumes and grains were only a small part of the diet in paleo times and that having them be a major part of it is risky? Maybe I've read the paleo stuff carelessly, or maybe not. I'd like to see these things debated - it's a bit frustrating when each side puts out their views separately.

    I agree that the modern Paleo diets being proposed don't argue in favour of tons of meat, though - all the stuff I've seen says that you should be having an omnivorous diet with loads of plants.
     
    SOC and justy like this.
  9. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

    Messages:
    8,379
    Likes:
    7,456
    UK
    We crossed, x - I'd like to see the debate but I'm not sure what to google on. Any pointers?
     
    justy likes this.
  10. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

    Messages:
    714
    Likes:
    2,090
    If you look at the traditional food pyramid, it says that our diet should be based on grains. The idea is that this is wrong. I find debating about whether we should eat no grains or little grains to be pointless.

    The idea is also that processed carbohydrates are particularly unhealthy. This is reflected in fiber content, vitamins, minerals and glycemic index. The speaker here agrees.

    The quality of feed raised animal meat is not the same as that of wild game. Wild game meat is leaner, and contains a lot more anti-inflammatory fats.

    So these are some problems with modern diet. On the bright side, we have access to fruits and vegetables all year round.

    In my opinion what we should really be doing is eating a lot of vegetables, some fruit, some high quality meat, some grains (preferably unprocessed) and all the other things a varied diet should have. In particular, we should pay attention to the fatty acid composition of the fats we eat, not so much to the amount, and we should try to eat "real" and fresh food instead of processed products.

    At least that is how I understand this topic. Others will say paleo and mean a "lots of meat" diet. In the end it's just a label.
     
    NK17, Mij, Sasha and 3 others like this.
  11. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

    Messages:
    8,379
    Likes:
    7,456
    UK
    I think it's important if those things are likely to be triggers for the immune system.
     
  12. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,872
    Likes:
    1,532
    Florida
    I just googled the title of the video. Robb wolfs name showed up but that's as far as I got today.

    Fwiw. I don't spend my time on these discussions. Back in 2007-8 when I was first introduced to the paleo diet, Dr Cordain's info was recommended. And we all discussed adding in potatoes. Many of us decided sweet potatoes were ok.

    The people I knew that were involved in these discussions had health issues so we had other things to focus on. For those who had the time there were discussions on other forums. Just not the ones I frequented. That was 2008 and the same discussions keep re-appearing. Lol.

    I feel best if I eat mostly paleo but found it was just too difficult to keep up with fresh foods. Something was always rotting and my access to healthy looking fresh produce is limited. Living near a Whole Foods would make this easier.

    Tc .. x
     
    Sasha likes this.
  13. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

    Messages:
    8,379
    Likes:
    7,456
    UK
    Thanks, X - I'll take a look.

    I find the idea of following the diet that we evolved on (as close as is possible) a compelling one, and, given that it involves effort and expense and that my long-term health is probably at stake, I want to get it right.

    I don't find how I'm feeling to be any sort of guide to a good diet, unfortunately - I seem to feel pretty much the same whatever diet I'm on.
     
    justy and xchocoholic like this.
  14. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,872
    Likes:
    1,532
    Florida
    I'm attracted to the paleo diet because the food is bio-available.

    If you have time I would look at Dr Wahls info too. Her diet is paleo with emphasis on veggies and fruits.

    I don't know if she's still recommending such large quantities but imho, 9 cups of these is out of the question for most people tho. Unless you have a personal assistant and chef.

    I always feel better from juicing red cabbage, romain lettuce, parsley, apples, pineapple but it's too hard with my OI to keep up with it. The order given reflects portions.

    I don't get energy from eating or blending the same ingredients.
    But my digestion is really screwed up. Probably from eating gluten for 50 years.

    Good luck. X
     
    Sasha likes this.
  15. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

    Messages:
    8,379
    Likes:
    7,456
    UK
    I had a go at the Wahls thing but like you, couldn't get the recommended amount of stuff down my neck. You're right, you need a chef!

    BTW, have you seen she's got a new book out, called The Wahls Protocol?

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wahls-Proto...F8&qid=1404318813&sr=8-1&keywords=terry wahls
     
    xchocoholic likes this.
  16. end

    end Senior Member

    Messages:
    252
    Likes:
    145
    Couldn't agree more on multiple points. I think the only issue you missed was the fact we shouldn't eat any GM grains whether whole grain or not.
     
    NK17 likes this.
  17. IreneF

    IreneF Senior Member

    Messages:
    464
    Likes:
    427
    I haven't seen the video, but I just read a couple of books about human diet.

    We really don't have a lot of direct evidence about what people ate that long ago, but we can make some informed guesses--basically, anything and everything. Fish, shellfish, all kinds of game, anything that grows that's not poisonous, and honey. People probably developed seasonal habits, going to the salmon stream during their migration, hunting lots of game in the fall when the animals were fat, collecting wild grain when it was ripe, and so on. We've also evolved since the paleolithic era. Many people can now digest milk as adults, and grain eaters have more copies of the gene for an enzyme that breaks down starch.

    You should listen to your mother and eat your vegetables.
     
    justy and NK17 like this.
  18. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,441
    Likes:
    11,866
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    My sister in law had the idea that what people ate thousands of years ago was less important than what they ate hundreds of years ago, and even far back in history where people lived was very important. So if your ancestors ate potato, eat potato. If they ate rice, eat rice. If they ate deer, eat venison. Etc. The point is probably most clearly made with people whose ancestors did not drink milk. Many of them are lactose intolerant.

    Of course with people moving around the idea of ancestral diets is becoming problematic anyway.

    The simplest way to view this is you want the most nutrients, macro and micro, for the least calories. So quality fats, quality meat, quality veges etc. High consumption of grains is very very recent I think. Yes, we ate grains, in small amounts. Ditto meat, though in places where fishing or hunting were the norm then they ate a lot of meat.

    Humans are omnivores. We can adapt to many diets. What our ancestors ate are what are most likely to be adapted to. However everyone is different, particularly since in modern times people are increasingly of mixed heritage. Then its a case of having to figure it all out ... what works for you is the most important thing.
     
    justy, TigerLilea and NK17 like this.
  19. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,872
    Likes:
    1,532
    Florida
    Thanks. I'll look for her new book. The comments section was very interesting. Both Hyman and Perlmutter wrote reviews. :)

    I was really enjoying her videos a few years ago. She dumbed it down enough so I could follow it.

    Juicing is the only way for me to get those fruits and veggies. It takes an hour to prep and clean up. And I'm fighting my OI the whole time. A chef would be great !

    Tc .. x
     
    Sasha likes this.
  20. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,441
    Likes:
    11,866
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    Sometimes cooking something healthy can take me up to four hours ... for something that should take twenty minutes. I get up, peel something, sit down, rest. Repeat. Same issue for cooking. Very slow. Of course on a good day it takes me 20 minutes, so its not always that bad.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page