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Death Spiral: 4th Phase of Life May Signal the End Is Near

Discussion in 'Other Health News and Research' started by antares4141, Jul 27, 2016.

  1. antares4141

    antares4141 Senior Member

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    Truth or consequences, nm
    I posted this because I was taken back a bit by how easy it is to test for leaky gut. At least in fish, flies & nematodes.


    "In another study, scientists observed fruit flies, nematodes and zebrafish, to see if their intestines exhibited increased leakiness before death. The researchers tested this leakiness, called permeability, by feeding food dye to each animal. If permeability increased, that dye would leak out into the animal's body, and its body would change color — blue in the flies and fish, and fluorescent green in the nematodes. The research, published online March 22 in the journal Scientific Reports, concluded that this intestinal leakiness was a marker of death in all three species."


    http://www.livescience.com/55557-de...tm_campaign=socialfbls&cmpid=social_ls_514627
     
  2. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Leaky gut is pretty easy to test for in humans too, using the lactulose/mannitol test.
     
  3. kangaSue

    kangaSue Senior Member

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    This is not an exact test though and contrasting results have been found in different studies. A motility specialist told me that this test was just as prone to a high rate of false results as a Hydrogen Breath Test is when used in people with a chronic motility disorder too.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2980675/
    [Disaccharides (lactulose) or Poly-ethylene-glycol (PEG)-3350 are frequently used as orally ingested large molecules, while monosaccharides (mannitol, L-rhamnose) or PEG-400 are used as small molecular probes[8]. Subsequently, the renal excretion of the two probes is monitored over a defined interval (mostly 5 h), and permeability is then expressed as the quotient (ratio) of the urinary recovery of the large molecule divided by the small molecule[8]. It is assumed that the probes used are non-fermentable by bacteria in the gastrointestinal lumen and that they are not metabolized in the body. These molecules are also supposed to be excreted in urine in proportion to the amount that has been absorbed through the intestinal mucosa[8]. Thus far, contrasting results have been reported for intestinal permeability tests using dual probe molecules in several studies[7,9]. This is mainly attributed to a number of assumptions that have to be made to interpret the test-results[8,9]. In particular, pathways of intestinal permeation of the different molecules and the mechanisms by which permeability is altered are as yet incompletely understood.]
     
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  4. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    It says here that:
    I am not sure how you would detect false results in the lactulose/mannitol test, if that test is itself the gold standard (ie, there is no test which is more accurate).
     
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  5. kangaSue

    kangaSue Senior Member

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    Point 11 from the list of the pro's and con's of the Lactulose/mannitol test in your reference paper confirms the view expressed by my motility doctor in regards to those with already impaired motility;

    11. Lactulose/mannitol can be affected by GI motility, the distribution of the tracer, variations in gastric emptying,renal clearance, the use of medication, smoking, and alcohol consumption, leading to even more false positive results.13-16
     
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  6. antares4141

    antares4141 Senior Member

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    Compare test results to healthy controls and see if they are still statistically significant?
     
  7. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I guess that relates to the variability in the test results in the same patient.

    But i don't think you can compare the lactulose/mannitol test to a more accurate gold standard measure of intestinal permeability, because apparently the lactulose/mannitol test is the gold standard.
     
  8. antares4141

    antares4141 Senior Member

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    Because there is so much bias by main stream. I take the below with a grain of salt. But by the same token health fraud is rampant and generally focused on people who can't get help from main stream.
    When there are test's that pass the muster of peer review and are accepted by main stream as legitimate I'll definitely look into getting one.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaky_gut_syndrome
    "Leaky gut syndrome is not a recognized medical diagnosis, the claimed symptoms are generic and there is no medically validated test.[2] According to National Health Service England,

    There is little evidence to support this theory, and no evidence that so-called 'treatments' for 'leaky gut syndrome', such as nutritional supplements and a gluten-free diet, have any beneficial effect for most of the conditions they are claimed to help.[2]

    Quackwatch calls leaky gut a "fad diagnosis". Stephen Barrett writes that its proponents use the alleged condition as an opportunity to promote a number of alternative health remedies including diets, herbal preparations, and dietary supplements.[6]

    Skeptics and mainstream scientists generally agree that most marketing of treatments for leaky gut syndrome is, at best, misguided, and at worst, an instance of deliberate health fraud.[2]"
     
  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    @antares4141
    There is a difference between leaky gut (intestinal permeability) and leaky gut syndrome.

    There is no question that leaky gut exists (you can find over a 1000 papers on PubMed with "intestinal permeability" in the title); the controversy is whether leaky gut can cause symptoms, or play a role in triggering disease.

    The idea or theory that a leaky gut can cause symptoms or play a role in triggering disease is referred to as "leaky gut syndrome," and some alternative health practitioners believe that it can.

    The diseases leaky gut syndrome is proposed to cause include ME/CFS, asthma, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis and autism. Ref: 1

    In summary: leaky gut is a fact; whereas leaky gut syndrome is at the moment an unproven controversial idea.


    However, as an ME/CFS treatment, in this 2008 paper, Michael Maes studied 41 ME/CFS patients who he put on "natural anti-inflammatory and anti-oxidative substances, such as glutamine, N-acetyl cysteine and zinc, in conjunction with a leaky gut diet" for a period of 10 to 14 months. Up to 24 patients showed a significant clinical improvement or remission after this protocol, along with attenuation of their IgA and IgM responses to LPS.

    So this suggests there may be something to leaky gut syndrome.

    (Most of the above was copied from my post here).
     
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  10. kangaSue

    kangaSue Senior Member

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    Looking at the list of pro's and con's for the lactulose/mannitol test though, I think 'gold standard" is a bit of a stretch and, in this context, it really just means least worst.
     
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  11. antares4141

    antares4141 Senior Member

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    I guess here there are differences in opinion in how much and whats leaking? I would think if main stream were to agree pathogens were leaking they would also have to agree that leaky gut is more than a "syndrome". I'm not nearly as well versed as you seem to be on the subject so I can't give any informed opinion on what I think.
    I try to stay away from studies and papers that are not tailored for the lay person to understand. And why I like wiki so much. It's tailored towards people like me. And I can usually get a pretty well informed opinion from someone who is knowledgeable.
    Here is where I depend on peer review. And there doesn't seem to be a consensus on this.
     
  12. antares4141

    antares4141 Senior Member

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    Oh, I should add I do think there is a strong relation between cfs and leaky gut. Just that I would like
    to see a study with such strong evidence that nobody could deny it. And in the past few years we have been seeing a lot or work in this area. So I am hopeful this will come.
     
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