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dealing with low stomach acid.

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by douglasmich, Jun 14, 2016.

  1. douglasmich

    douglasmich

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    I searched a few threads here and most talked about betaine hcl.

    I am dealing with very low stomach acid. 16 hours after eating a meal with 3000mg betaine HCL im burping the taste of the meal.

    Now i could increase betaine to 5000mg but its not practical. Its overloading me with methyldonors.

    Is there a better way? I use bulk betaine powder combined with the pepsin in my enzymes. I wish i could get bulk pepsin easily.

    I feel i really need to bandaid my HCL as low HCL causes way too many problems.

    Cheers
     
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  2. Dechi

    Dechi Senior Member

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  3. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

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    I don't know if this helps at all @douglasmich but I'm also taking betaine HCL, (just as Betaine HCL and pepsin tablets) at the same dose plus ox bile and digestive enzymes. I understand that some people do need 4.5 -5 grams and I originally followed a pattern of increasing my dose until I felt a burn after eating and worked up to 4.2g. But after a while (maybe a few months I cannot remember) I found that my need seemed to decrease down to 3g.

    Before taking these I had issues with SIBO and dysbiosis that lead to a lot of very painful gas, but I no longer have SIBO, I do not have gas in the hours that the food is likely to be in the small intestine, and seldom have more gas that I had in the days before I had CFS. It is certainly nolonger painful.

    Just thinking it through. The 16 hrs thing suggests that it is not SIBO (which is great). I would think even with a large fatty meal your stomach would empty after 3 hrs and the food would be in the large intestine after 4 - 6hrs. So the gas would be from fermentation in the large intestine.

    I know that we have issues with muscle control, and that peristalsis might be impaired, but I do not see how the food could still be in your stomach after all that time.

    If it was delayed gastric emptying https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastroparesis, the symptoms seem very different.

    So I guess I would look at the lower gut, and things like fat malabsorbtion etc, but I do not know I'm just thinking out loud.

    Maybe burps that taste like food is a very specific and telling symptom that someone else can help you with.
     
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  4. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    One thing you might try alongside your betaine HCl is a digestive enzyme complex that contains many different enzymes, such as this one, which contains: protease 1, protease 2, aspergillopepsin, amylase, lipase, cellulase, glucoamylase, invertase, alpha galactosidase, beta-glucanase, pectinase, xylanase, phytase, hemicellulase, lactase, bromelain, papain and peptidase.
     
  5. douglasmich

    douglasmich

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    Im taking NOW super enzymes after meals. It seems to help. Great combo of pancreatine and enzymes.

    I have wasted alot on supps and i think these supplements are crucial for recovery.

    I feel i need to bandaid my bile system with ox bile, my enzyme system with pancreatine and my stomsch acid with betaine. I think i will never get out of the catch 22 without this support. It seems in most chronic disease these systems are very compromised allowing pathogens to go wild and nutrient deficiency to worsen....
     
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  6. kangaSue

    kangaSue Senior Member

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    Because of our complicated digestive system, there is no way of telling for sure if you have too much or too little stomach acid other than by having a 24hr pH Manometry Test. Anything else is just a guessing game as the problem could also be bile acid reflux from a dicky gallbladder or a malfunctioning pyloric valve.
     
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  7. douglasmich

    douglasmich

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    What do you guys think of the safety of ox bile?

    Im taking 700mg with dinner and 600mg with another meal. Ive found a good way to manage my issues (colonic inertia + digestive insufficiency)

    I wake up at 8am. And every hour i drink raw organic juice untill 5pm. Then i get prepared for dinner.

    Before 7pm i take 3-5g betaine then eat a salad with max 225g meat. After i take 2 x NOW super enzymes and 1 x 500mg ox bile.

    Then at 10pm i make oats with butter and stewed fruit. Before it i take 1g betaine and after 1x ox bile and 1x super enzymes.

    This works best for me. No stress in the day too.

    Ive been drinking 2tbsp castor oil in the morning with coffee every other day recently. Dye to my colon inertia i cannot have BMs. Not sure if this is safe long term
     
  8. douglasmich

    douglasmich

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    tonight i took 4200mg betiane before my meal. Meal was chicken salad with 225g meat.

    No burning from the dosage. However i am extremely wired and manic almost. Im assuming its from the methyldonors. I have a VDR +/+ and a COMT +/-.

    maybe i need to try citric acid. Or sip on ACV to take the betaine tablets
     
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  9. Unim

    Unim

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    Citric acid or ACV to acidify the stomach? I've read that citric and acetic acid can slow the gastric emptying rate. Not sure about ascorbic acid, but it seems to suit me; I take 2 grams with meals.

    Mineral supplements in the citrate form seem to exacerbate this symptom for me, but I haven't tried other forms yet.

    Some digestive bitters increase gastric secretions. I don't think gentian was traditionally recommended for long term use, and supposedly dandelion can be hard on the liver. Artichoke tincture is one I'm considering. I think I saw some trial of a product containing artichoke leaf extract and ginger that was supposed to aid digestion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2016
  10. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

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    TL;DR:
    alternatives to HCL are drinking diluted vinegar and diluted lemon juice with your meal. Any acid will acidify the stomach acid. Only when it's acid enough will the liver release bile. Bile is extra important to us.

    I am very vested in your topic.
    No bile (and hence no nutritional uptake) was the one symptom I could tackle when I first fell ill. We solved it with an vintage tonic recipe called Julapium which is just diluted Hydrochloric Acid (HCL) with rose water and sugar. It's a tonic that was used for decades in the previous century. My doctor knew an old retired pharmacist who could make it.

    Since then I've switched to HCL pills, vinegar and lemon juice. Am thinking about procuring food grade HCL fluid to make Julapium myself (hold the sugar).

    It taught me about the mechanics of that first part of the digestive system. How important pH is all throughout.

    My bile still goes missing whenever there's stress. I always need to take HCL with meals.
    At the moment I have no bile but also no stress and HCL is not helping at all. I think it has to do with the Hydrocortison I now supplement in "a large" quantity (40mg/day)...

    Bile also has to do with the kind of foods I take. Pasta, bread and rice initiate no stomach acid and hence no bile. Neither does full cream butter.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2016
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  11. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

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    once the stomach is acid enough the liver will react by producing bile. Lots of bodily waste gets transported out of the body via bile. Bile is good. Very important for people with ME, who need to eliminate waste products because we are so burdened by even the smallest morsels.

    Bile is my main reason for wanting to have a good acid stomach. It's also easy to check upon. Just look in the toilet, if #2 is dark there's bile. If it's light, there's not. If it floats, there's not.

    Only when the stomach has acid will the liver release bile. HCL is nothing else but pure acid. Stomach acid.
    Lemon juice and vinegar are pure acid too. Anything else I'm not sure of. Is ox bile acidifying? Are bitters? I think bitter stimulate the liver. I don't need that, I need acid.

    Here now are some additional factors to ponder:
    1. stomach acidity is directly related to your cortisol level/capability. I keep forgetting which way it goes but my cortisol was non existent and I didn't produce bile until I acidified my stomach. These days I'm on Hydrocortison and since I upped that dose my bile is gone again, no matter how much HCL I take.
    2. without bile in the poo waste will build up in the body. Especially neurotransmitters will keep mulling around the head. If you're on mB12 you're even putting more oil to that fire. Need to find additional ways to release bodily waste: sweat, tears, scrubbing, movement. Even simple stretching and yawning will help somewhat. Need to shut down the excess neurotransmitters (especially when you're +/+ for MAO A).
    3. cortisol has to do with blood pressure too. I have to relief my body of dealing with both at the same time: 45 minutes after I have eaten a meal I have to lie down. Only then will my stomach empty and will digestion begin in the next part of the intestine (duodenum incl. liver and gall bladder). So: stomach acid and digestion is related to the stress your body is under. This can even be the daily stress of providing enough blood pressure. You can help your body by lying flat when your stomach and liver need to do their thing.
    4. motility in the gut is halted when stress hormones are going through your body. Especially the "wired" we talk so much of on this forum is probably noradrenaline/norepinephrine and/or high dopamine. Dopamine halts the motions in the colon. Get out of Fight or Flight and motility resumes, you are then in Rest & Digest. (MAO A people are double screwed with this).
    5. It also works the other way: digestive troubles will cause stress hormones in the gut that will travel through to the brain. Constipation in the colon will give me extra dopamine and keep me awake at night. Constipation in the colon can be flushed out by taking 1500 mg of vit C. (or laxative but that's too forceful I feel. The same with enema's. It's just too much, too forceful.). Soft massage of the belly may work. As does changing your position (go lie on your side) as this will release air bubbles that are held up in sharp bends in the intestines. Breathing provides the natural movement all organs dance daily too. Breathing is good. Change position and breath for a couple of minutes. Change again and listen if your gut gets gurgling.
    6. don't poke the liver with supplements that annoy it. Anything that invigorates it I assume to be bad. Liver cleansing? Don't. It's too much, too forceful. Liver is already busy trying to keep your toxins in check. Especially when the bile-waste-route is not running.
    7. I know a scientific case of a guy who had Crohn's disease for 22 years. It turned out to be too high serotonine and too low dopamine. Once he was given the precursors for those neurotransmitters in the right balance his serotonine and dopamine levelled and he never had inflammation of the gut again. Neurotransmitters are in your gut, being produced and having local effect. (And y0u know the major inflammation stopper is cortisol) (and MAO A people have too high dopamine.)
    just a few thing that have my interest at the moment.

    As you may have guessed I'm MAO A +/+ and I find direct correlation in gut functionality. And vice versa.
     
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  12. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

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    In the transverse colon? I have it there but not so bad that a doctor could do anything, before.

    TL;DR:
    hold ups in the colon cause me nightly stress and insomnia. Am looking in mechanics of things (Hepatic Flexure, massage) and neurotransmitter side of things (dopamine frustrates colon function. Cortisol aids it.)
    Perhaps our stomach issues are related to the transverse colon being situated there and being a nuisance?

    sorry for my long story:
    all my life I've woken up after 4,5 hours of sleep. I fall asleep easily. But 4,5 hours in I wake up, in some sort of stress. I lie wide awake for 1,5 hours until things calm down and I get to have another 1 or 2 hours of crappy sleep.

    Have had this pattern all my life. Could find no variables to influence it permanently and I've searched.
    I recently figured out it's a problem in the colon.

    My intestine motility and functionality have never been great, partly due do permanent Fight or Flight status (aka high excitatory neurotransmitters) thanks to faulty MAO A enzym and being a hyper-alert person in general.
    This means my small intestines only go to work once I lie down and go to sleep.
    4,5 hours later they've done their job and moved everything on to the next part: the colon. (this is my assumption, that it takes about 4,5 hours to travel food through the small intestines. I've read it somewhere but can't re-find it)

    In the colon things get stuck. Somehow stuff doesn't get past the Hepatic Flexure. Things pile up in the Rising colon. It stretches and initiates a stress reaction that wakes me up. Then MAO A keeps me awake with high dopamine and high cortisol for way too long. I'm very alert though and can read scientific journals or write compelling speeches. (characteristics of the various catecholaminergic neurotransmitters can be found online)

    My GP suggested that it's an air bubble in the Hepatic Flexure that prevents things from moving into the Transverse colon. Bubble made by colon flora. This being a mechanic issue I tried a mechanic approach. What I now do is turn on my right side, in the middle of the night, when the first inconvenience starts. The air bubble that is trapped in the Hepatic Flexure travels upwards, into the Transverse colon. Not sure if this is what actually happens but when I turn on my back again I hear my belly gurgling and a little while later I'll pass wind.
    I get to resume sleeping. No stress reaction. No insomnia.

    There are still problems. Sigmoid colon is filled up, it seems the sphinxter at its end just doesn't want to play. It's part of the parasympathetic nervous system and I just don't know what to do.
    Then there's the hard mass I always feel at the stomach/Transverse colon spot, just between ribcage and belly button.
    (Honestly, who designed the upward colon ducking under the liver then re-emerging and travelling IN FRONT OF the stomach exit to bend backwards to the Splenic Flexure?:alien:)
    Perhaps our stomach/liver issues are related to the colon being situated there and being a nuisance?

    This Hepatic Flexure "gymnastics" has gotten me to sleep through the night now for 3 weeks solid. Which is major because I wasn't exaggerating when I wrote that I woke up every night, all my life.

    I also take 300 mg Progesteron every night before bed and this is a calming neurotransmitter also. (Not so much a sex hormone.) It's also the building block for cortisol so who knows. I have found that when I take enough cortisol my colon relaxes and gets happier in doing its work. Unfortunately cortisol seems to hinder stomach acid/bile production. But having a colon that works marginally better than before is a treat.

    I am very curious to your thoughts on any of this or anything else.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2016
  13. douglasmich

    douglasmich

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    Wow very informative !

    I also have MAO-A +/+. And i think bile is crucial. Coffee enemas worked wonders for me and if strong enough i could feel and hear my galbladder squirt bile. Drinking coffee has the opposite effect.

    By colonic inertia i mean my colon is totally paralyzed. If i dont drink castor oil or do an enema nothing will happen and il end up in the ER. Its not you'r standard constipation and it started after antibiotics.

    Im currently managing it with a low fiber diet and enemas. Recently castor oil 3x a week.

    To treat it il ne attempting fecal transplants with vancomycin prior, as constipation of this type has been hypothesized to be caused by clostridium spores
     
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  14. kangaSue

    kangaSue Senior Member

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    Motility in the gut can be impaired if you are not getting enough blood flow to the bowel too, severe gastroparesis at its worst.

    Next time you see a doctor ask them to listen for an abdominal bruit, it can be indicative of a flow restriction in one (or more) of the the mesentery arteries that supply blood to the bowel.

    Celiac Artery Compression Syndrome might be something else to be aware of with slowed gi motility.
     
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  15. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    Wow @WoolPippi, you sure have done your homework on digestion. Thanks for sharing it.

    I seem to have similar issues to you and Douglals, milder though and take similar digestive supplements. I find coffee enemas very helpful too, have been doing them for 3 years and they often give me several good hours of functioning. I've been experimenting with progesterone at night too and more seems better to me too for sleep.

    I'll reread this tomorrow and see if any other of your strategies makes sense for me to try.
     
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  16. MacGyver

    MacGyver

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    @WoolPippi Thanks for the info (en hallo :))! I've been focusing on vitamins and minerals for a while but have neglected the importance of proper digestion in fixing my health (I know, doesn't make sense but a man has to start somewhere and digestion wasn't it apparently) and it might as well be one of my biggest problems to fix.
    I think I'm suffering from acid/alkaline burns in my intestines due to low bile and that being the source of/contributing to all my pain. Tried some Betaine HCL this week with a major increase in pain as a result (until now I had no idea what the source of the pain was so that's 'good'!).

    I'm wondering that when bile is too low (as evidenced by light/floating stool), enterohepatic circulation is very important in all this. But it seems a bit of a catch 22 since we need bile to excrete waste but don't want too much waste reabsorbed by recirculation. That's theory.
    What's your stance/experience on using binders like psyllium husk or charcoal when stool is showing evidence of low bile?

    My gut (;)) feeling would be that having as much bile reabsorbed as possible outweighs reabsorption of toxins since production is an issue and costly in terms of resources (and thus energy as well) but I'd like to hear other people's input!

    Also MAO A +/+ here but feel I need to boost dopamine (and serotonine) a lot so I'm unsure of your conclusion regarding dopamine (but that's beside the point here).

    Thanks!
     
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  17. Lolinda

    Lolinda after meals, I need to lay in bed for hours

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    Same here. I am so glad I see people with similar issues, so far it was always only my odd problem no doctor could help with.

    in my case,the "small intestines go to work only when I lie down" problem looks like this:
    - I am convinced that where the food actually stays until then is simply the stomach. so, its concretely a gastric emptying issue. what evidence do I have?
    - - In fact, my gastric emptying has been investigated and it is delayed. more interestingly, I asked the technician to show me the video of the gastric scintigraphy. it showed clearly how the stomach does substantial movements to empty itself, but nothing or little comes out. -> closed pyloric valve. the measurement results also reported some diminuation of gastric contraction amplitude and frequency.
    - - adding to the scintigraphy argument, I do yoga since so many years, which increases body feeling of whats going on ("interoceptive sensitivity"). it is like a "builtin ultrasound" where you know very well whats happenimg. listen into myself and feel things others dont feel. this tells me: I feel the same when my stomach empties after meal and when digestion starts at night.
    - - if you want to test if your nightly waking up and digesting is also because of foodremaining in the stomach, here is a simple test: before going to bed, go for a round of jogging. can be very light if you dont like jogging. if there is food in the stomach, you likely feel a mild or moderate crampiness / tugging / weight / hardness in the area where the stomach is. dont overdo, it can bring your trouble. actually, in me a very light round of jogging is a good method to help the problem because after the jogging I lay down and then the gastric motility starts!
    - In me the problem is so severe that often I cannot sleep already right from the beginning when the stomach empties after lying down and then the small intestines start working.
    - If my stomach empties fully during the day (fortunately most days), then I sleep perfectly, but still may wake up later during the night, as described. When not waking up, my snoreclock or sleep phases (android apps) show me that exactly that same time is where I snore. No, I dont think that this is when the food arrives in the large intestine (cause most of the days I have no issues of food remaining in stomach) but still have the snoring phase / wake up after x hours of sleep. But I like the argument that it is related to blood flow. blood foow is poor in me and in addition I have a low spo2. so the heart starts pumping and the owner of that heart wakes up. :eek: My guess is that it has to do with cronobiology: there is a time at night when the liver is more active and I recall it is just this time when I have the issue. so it detoxes or whatever and needs blood flow. and here come in the bad bacteria: they produce a host of toxins into the portal vein. for example LPS from gut bacteria ar filtered by the liver. dont know however if that happens immediately or at night or at last there is sthg left to do at night.
    - i have difficulties believing air bubble theories. billions of people have lots of air in the belly and do not have these problems.
    - All these waking up probs at night I could substantially improve by not eating supper
    - when I got sicker even that was not enough. just a few weeks ago, I found out b6 helps. both with the gastric emptying during the day as well as with the sleeping in case things go wrong and I start digesting at night. I can give details what I do exactly and what I know why it helps and what the reason is why one may stay awake at night because of digestion (in brief: serotonin makes motility, serotonin antagonizes with melatonin -> no sleep. b6 improves both -> sleep and digestion)
    - I guess melatonin antagonizes not only serotonin but also dopamine and noradrenaline and any other thing that pushes. now, guess what, many motility enhancer drugs do what? block dopamine.
    - self-acupressure of several TCM points helps
    - laying in bed after meals is a necessity for me :( I had my noradrenaline measured: laying its normal, standing its excessive. I can bring it down by meditation, but no use: I went so far that I almost fainted and my temperature dropped more than 1°C. it helps with digestion but is no solution.
    - I know the reason why my intestinal blood flow is poor and I have such xcessive norepinephrine standing: too much blood flow s directed to skin (I have unusually warm skin, very well perfused, receiving most of blood flow. science says it can take up to 60% of blood flow of the heart!). I wish I would know people with the same problem! essentially, it is that my body behaves as if it would be 40°C. many people getborthostatic issues, high noradrenaline or have issues with food at such temperatures.

    does anyone know
    - what to do for a more relaxed pyloric valve / resp. better steering of opening at the right time?
    - further ways of increasing gastric motility?
    - diminishing dopamine somewhat, naturally?
    - natural ways to increase low blood pressure? (salt helps me but is not enough. increasing methylation helps too, but makes even more aktivating neurotransmitters. glycine is good, but can take only <1g because it suppresses immune system)
    - how to correct thermoregulation?

    if anyone want research papers proving the above or my lab values for comparison, just ask, I am glad to send.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2016
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  18. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Glycine for snoring! I cured my husband's snoring with Mg glycinate back in December 2014. I know it ties in with B6 some place along the pathway.
     
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  19. Lolinda

    Lolinda after meals, I need to lay in bed for hours

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    cool. Inspite of having written all of the above, I didnt know gylcine stops snoring! will do an experiment soon!

    there is however one issue I already experienced: if I take glycine before the meals AND before sleep, then I mess up with the immune system: glycine suppresses that. suppressing it all the day is not fun. concretely, I did it all the day and then developed flu-like symptoms. after 1 single day! ok, it was light, harmless and went away soon.
    question @Gondwanaland and anyone else: did you or your husband experie.ce anything similar? is this sthg one can ignore and it goes away after a while? or does it get stronger and stronger? certainly, I can test and risk it, but better to have others' experiences first...

    now the thing is that I need glycine after meals because glycine is wonderful in being an inhibitory neurotransmitter in the brain
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycine#As_a_neurotransmitter
    and an excitatory neurotransmittter in the gut.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2278892/
    so it helps me in both. then I need to pause it at night to not run into flu. So its fine for me to test it for 1 night to see if snoring gone, but I am unsure how to make it work for me permanently at night.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2016
  20. MacGyver

    MacGyver

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    Just want to give a slight update that what increased my pain is probably not acid/alkaline burns (time will tell) but the TMG in Betaine HCL lowering available dopamine and thus leading to an increase in pain, not the acid itself.

    Regarding the wired feeling on excess Betaine and thus TMG; have any of you tried taking more magnesium for that?
    Also, from my understanding the pyloric valve might stay shut if it detects that whatever is in the stomach is not acid enough.

    @Llinda
    Good point, opiods are known to induce constipation and they raise both serotonine and noradrenaline...

    Have any of you tried methione or SAMe to improve bile flow? I think methylation has more to do with all this than we're assuming...
     
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