"Deactivating Epstein-Barr virus" through supplements??

[Stretched]

It is wise to consult a variety of sources of information and look at the range of data and advice in the context of one's own situation to make an educated decision.

I find that Life Extension brings up interesting information that may be left out of generic sites that can provide additional insights to inform my decisions, though I rarely buy their products, while the University of Maryland and Oregon State University are reputable and I've found them useful over time.

And, if I find conflicting information, I find it prudent to get the the bottom of the discrepancy to ensure I'm not getting into an unsafe situation.

You sound informed. It just seemed that Scripps is so vast as to offer you something. They used to sell subscriptions to double blind ratings of supplements along with
contraindications with ethical pharmaceuticals. They did something similar with Pharmacy.. Both were extensive AND expensive. Good luck.

 

[Butydoc]

i Hip,

Where is there a good article that demonstrates Montoya's results that antivirals are effective? Are there any published results showing that measuring viral titers are helpful in making decisions concerning the use of antivirals. Is there a good article that shows that responders to antivirals also have a predictive viral profile?

Butydoc

 

[Learner1]

Were you thinking of these?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23080504

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17276366/?i=3&from=/23959519/related

 

[Hip]

Where is there a good article that demonstrates Montoya's results that antivirals are effective?

To my knowledge, for the herpesvirus subset of ME/CFS, it is only Dr Martin Lerner and Prof Montoya + Dr Kogelnik who have conducted published trials on the efficacy of Valtrex and Valcyte for treating ME/CFS.

Only one of Montoya and Kogelnik's studies was double-blind and placebo-controlled. His results in this study were not overly impressive, but did show that patients on Valcyte for a course of 6 months were 7.4 times more likely to be classified as responders than the placebo patients.

However, the issue with Montoya's studies is that ME/CFS patients taking Valtrex and Valcyte generally do not begin showing improvements until around 3 or 4 months, and the full benefits only manifest after around 2 years or so — we know this from Lerner's studies.

All of Montoya's three studies were for 6 months duration only, and this is not really enough time for the full benefits of treatment to manifest.


Lerner's study on 142 ME/CFS patients was better in that it was conducted for a total of 6 years of Valtrex or Valcyte treatment, but it was not placebo controlled. This study is interesting, because it shows the slow improvement that patients make over the years, with most improvement occurring with the first two years.

If you look at the second table in this post, you see that slow improvement (as measured by the Energy Index Point Score) that occurs on these antivirals.

Are there any published results showing that measuring viral titers are helpful in making decisions concerning the use of antivirals. Is there a good article that shows that responders to antivirals also have a predictive viral profile?

That's a question I have always wondered about: is it only ME/CFS patients with high titers to EBV, HHV-6 and/or cytomegalovirus who respond to Valtrex/Valcyte, or do patients with low herpesvirus titers also respond?

Montoya investigated this question in this study, and found that:

Valganciclovir treatment, independent of the baseline antibody titers, was associated with self-rated improvement in physical and cognitive functioning for CFS patients who had positive HHV-6 and/or EBV serologies.

So the initial baseline titers did not seem to have much bearing on who responded and who did not. Although he found that:

The high baseline titer group exhibited a trend toward increased physical and cognitive improvement.

So the patients with initial higher titers at baseline seemed to respond a little better.

Thus the results of this paper seem to suggest that you can also benefit from Valcyte (valganciclovir) even if you have low herpesvirus titers.

What can we conclude from that? As far as I can see, it could mean: (1) some ME/CFS patients may have low level herpesvirus infections causing their ME/CFS symptoms, but these infections do not always create high titers; (2) Valcyte is able to improve ME/CFS by a mechanism unrelated to its antiviral action on herpesviruses.

To my knowledge, however, ME/CFS specialist doctors are still testing for high herpesvirus titers or high enterovirus titers, and treating patients with antivirals on that basis (Valtrex, Famvir or Valcyte, etc for herpesviruses; and oxymatrine, etc for enteroviruses).

 

[Butydoc]

To my knowledge, for the herpesvirus subset of ME/CFS, it is only Dr Martin Lerner and Prof Montoya + Dr Kogelnik who have conducted published trials on the efficacy of Valtrex and Valcyte for treating ME/CFS.

Only one of Montoya and Kogelnik's studies was double-blind and placebo-controlled. His results in this study were not overly impressive, but did show that patients on Valcyte for a course of 6 months were 7.4 times more likely to be classified as responders than the placebo patients.

However, the issue with Montoya's studies is that ME/CFS patients taking Valtrex and Valcyte generally do not begin showing improvements until around 3 or 4 months, and the full benefits only manifest after around 2 years or so — we know this from Lerner's studies.

All of Montoya's three studies were for 6 months duration only, and this is not really enough time for the full benefits of treatment to manifest.


Lerner's study on 142 ME/CFS patients was better in that it was conducted for a total of 6 years of Valtrex or Valcyte treatment, but it was not placebo controlled. This study is interesting, because it shows the slow improvement that patients make over the years, with most improvement occurring with the first two years.

If you look at the second table in this post, you see that slow improvement (as measured by the Energy Index Point Score) that occurs on these antivirals.





That's a question I have always wondered about: is it only ME/CFS patients with high titers to EBV, HHV-6 and/or cytomegalovirus who respond to Valtrex/Valcyte, or do patients with low herpesvirus titers also respond?

Montoya investigated this question in this study, and found that:


So the initial baseline titers did not seem to have much bearing on who responded and who did not. Although he found that:


So the patients with higher titers initially seemed to respond a little better.

Thus the results of this paper seem to suggest that you can also benefit from Valcyte (valganciclovir) even if you have low herpesvirus titers.

What can we conclude from that? As far as I can see, it could mean: (1) some ME/CFS patients may have low level herpesvirus infections causing their ME/CFS symptoms, but these infections do not always create high titers; (2) Valcyte is able to improve ME/CFS by a mechanism unrelated to its antiviral action on herpesviruses.

To my knowledge, however, ME/CFS specialists are still testing for high herpesvirus titers or high enterovirus titers, and treating patients with antivirals on that basis (Valtrex, Famvir or Valcyte, etc for herpesviruses; and oxymatrine, etc for enteroviruses).

Maybe it has little to do with on going chronic viral infection. Valcyte is also considered a microglial inhibitor.

 

[Hip]

Maybe it has little to do with on going chronic viral infection. Valcyte is also considered a microglial inhibitor.

From the Valcyte studies alone, certainly it is a logical possibility that the benefits of Valcyte for ME/CFS are not related to its anti-herpesvirus action. Though earlier studies showing Valcyte is a microglial inhibitor have been contradicted: this latest study found no microglial inhibiting effects from Valcyte. But nevertheless, Valcyte might be ameliorating ME/CFS by some alternative mechanism of action not related to viruses.

But Dr Lerner also conduced a placebo-controlled study on the effects of Valtrex for EBV-associated ME/CFS, which had positive results, and Valtrex is a different drug to Valcyte, therefore Valtrex cannot work by this assumed alternative mechanism of Valcyte.

And Dr Peterson has reported good results in a cidofovir study, although it was not placebo controlled. This is a different antiviral again.

So that suggests that these antivirals are ameliorating ME/CFS by an antiviral mechanism.

 

[eric_gladiator]

Having high ebv titles can be confused with ME / CFS? My specialist immunologist says that my analysis is all right except the virus ebv that is through the roof, although I have already experienced almost all the symptoms of me, it is possible that they are caused by ebv and not me? So, that is the Andrographis product? I read reviews for lyme and they speak wonders of the

 

[Learner1]

EBV is infectious mononucleosis, which has symptoms. Many of us had the acute version years ago, but more recently have had reactivated or chronic infections with different symptoms than the original infection. You may or may not have swollen lymph nodes, fever, fatigue, etc.

Beyond this, EBV can put a load on your immune system, making it hard to fight it or other things off.

And, it is notorious for creating autoimmunity. Patients around here who have had EBV have been found to have a variety of weird antibodies that have developed over time. Adrenergic and muscarinic antibodies, for instance, have been linked to ME/CFS and to autoimmune POTS, but there are many others.

This article is a theory of how this all works - all the pieces haven't been tested together, but the authors the together a lot of the existing research into a believable and cohesive story.