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David Tuller / Trial by Error: Retired PACE Investigator Peter White and Swiss Re

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by Cheshire, Aug 7, 2017.

  1. Cheshire

    Cheshire Senior Member

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    http://www.virology.ws/2017/08/07/trial-by-error-retired-pace-investigator-peter-white-and-swiss-re/
     
    Jo Best, ScottTriGuy, MEMum and 31 others like this.
  2. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Keep 'em coming, David.
     
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  3. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Rebel without a biscuit

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    He mentions linking to a screen shot of PDW announced as speaker at a Swiss Re conference but I don't see it.

    Am I confused about this?
     
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  4. lilpink

    lilpink Senior Member

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    MEMum, Luther Blissett, Jan and 6 others like this.
  5. Denise

    Denise Senior Member

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  6. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Rebel without a biscuit

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    @lilpink @Denise

    Thanks for responding and for the links. I'm unclear which he is referring to as I expected to see the screen shot in his post or a link to it but did not see one.
     
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  7. Denise

    Denise Senior Member

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    @Snowdrop - I can't find the screenshot either. The first part of today's post is current, and the second part if a re-post from 2015. It looks as though the freeezepage link is the screenshot Tuller is referring to in the current post.
     
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  8. AndyPR

    AndyPR Senior Member

    David says
    and then says this further down
    I assume the link in this quoted section originally went to the Swiss Re site but it is now the link that @lilpink has given that is a saved version of that page.
     
  9. Snowdrop

    Snowdrop Rebel without a biscuit

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    Thanks all. I think I might be unconfused now.
     
  10. Barry53

    Barry53 Senior Member

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    From the WMA DECLARATION OF HELSINKI – ETHICAL PRINCIPLES FOR MEDICAL RESEARCH INVOLVING HUMAN SUBJECTS:-
    https://www.wma.net/policies-post/w...or-medical-research-involving-human-subjects/
     
  11. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member

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    The other side.
    Fairly sure he's got a get out for that;

    "experts" i.e. him and his coterie, say that people with M.E. are delusional, being delusional they can't give informed consent, therefore he's covered.
     
  12. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    So would they not be considered to be "human subjects capable of giving informed consent"? (point 26)
     
  13. Barry53

    Barry53 Senior Member

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    The declaration also covers people unable to give informed consent ... take a look at the link.
     
  14. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

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    Yes but in this situation, the onus is on the person making the claim to demonstrate incapacity to give consent.
     
  15. Daisymay

    Daisymay Senior Member

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  16. Barry53

    Barry53 Senior Member

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    What an astonishing revelation!

    The point about effectively filtering for CBT/GET-compliant patients, would not only have reduced the drop-out rate, but would also have tacitly improved the the chances of favourable responses to subjective measurement methods.

    The meaction link cited is now broken. Does anyone know if that information still exists anywhere else?
     
  17. slysaint

    slysaint Senior Member

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    this link works:

    http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/COERCION_AS_CURE.htm

    eta:
    "Of just seven random controlled trials (RCTs) looking at CBT in “CFS/ME” that exist, three used imprecise entry criteria; two had negative results (meaning that CBT did not work) and one was on adolescents only, leaving just one RCT, and this study used a less aggressive type of CBT from that used by the Wessely School, of which Chalder is a prominent member. None of the seven RCTs included children or patients who were severely affected (see http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/Defiance_of_Science.htm )."
    "
    Gibson Inquiry member Lord Turnberg (the former Professor Sir Leslie Turnberg, President of the Royal College of Physicians and a staunch Wessely School supporter) stated at this same Oral Evidence session that everyone with “CFS” gets better with CBT and that this has been “proven”. Lord Turnberg suggested that Dr Jonathan Kerr from the Department of Cellular and Molecular Medicine, St George’s University of London (who was also giving evidence) should join forces with Trudie Chalder to look at how the genes of “CFS/ME” patients alter and recover with CBT. It was clear to all who heard this exchange that the Wessely School wanted to get into gene research and that they had got the next stage of their “CFS/ME research” well mapped out.
    Chalder’s latest claim that CBT helps people with type I diabetes (diabetes mellitus, or DM) is interesting."
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  18. Daisymay

    Daisymay Senior Member

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  19. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

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    Actually, I cant help thinking that Swiss Re are also getting bad advice. White is implying that if insurance companies pay out on CBT/GET - at several thousand pounds a pop - this cost will be offset by savings on other types of claims (presumably further healthcare costs, income support costs).

    This claim is untrue. The McCrone cost effectiveness paper showed that in PACE, healthcare-related costs were higher following GET and CBT than following medical care alone (SMC). See Table 3. There was no difference between SMC and CBT or GET with respect to receipt of illness/disability payments. See Table 4.

    The only way you can turn CBT/GET into a win if you're a government or insurance company is if you refuse to pay out healthcare and benefits to people who fail to improve on it. But I don't think insurance companies can do that.

    So the insurance companies are getting just as conned as we are.

    No-one wins with CBT or GET for CFS except those that promote and deliver CBT and GET for CFS.

    It seems White's recommendations to Swiss Re are biased. While he was still heading a department that delivered CBT/GET, and advising insurance companies to reimburse these services, he was downright conflicted.
     
  20. CFS_for_19_years

    CFS_for_19_years Hoarder of biscuits

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    Thanks for pointing this out. I don't think I've seen this emphasized anywhere else. Perhaps it would be something David Tuller could broadcast in a future blog in order to get the word out.
     

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