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David Tuller: 'Trial by error continued: the real data'

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by Kati, Sep 22, 2016.

  1. Kati

    Kati Patient in training

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  2. Kyla

    Kyla ᴀɴɴɪᴇ ɢꜱᴀᴍᴩᴇʟ

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    http://www.virology.ws/2016/09/22/trial-by-error-continued-the-real-data/


    excerpt:

    read the rest here:
    http://www.virology.ws/2016/09/22/trial-by-error-continued-the-real-data/
     
  3. Tom Kindlon

    Tom Kindlon Senior Member

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  4. AndyPR

    AndyPR Cookies for Tired Sam

    Jeez David, don't beat about the bush, say what you mean.. ;)
     
    Daisymay, waiting, moosie and 17 others like this.
  5. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Horton's behaviour is unacceptable.
     
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  6. *GG*

    *GG* Senior Member

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    Should really be a LOVE or Super Like function for posts like this!

    GG
     
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  7. CFS_for_19_years

    CFS_for_19_years Hoarder of biscuits

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    Tuller:
    In the comments section - Chris: (bolding mine)
     
  8. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Its all unacceptable.

    Science has taken some very wrong turns in the last few decades, but perhaps the most insidious and dangerous wrong turn is how so many in media, bureaucracy and the medical community completely fail to grasp the obvious problems.

    The question that inevitably arises is this: if they fail to grasp the obvious, how can we trust them in any other matter? They have diminished credibility.

    There are lots of extenuating circumstances, this does not lead to blame for the media, bureaucracy or medical community, but it does show a failure in responsibility.
     
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  9. Kati

    Kati Patient in training

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    Horton's reaction makes me curious. What's his story? Did he accept any kind of bribe to fast track publishing? What's for him to lose (other than his reputation)? Who does he get orders from? How big is the network of lies and vested interests (essentially, a cartel)?

    It sounds like crazy, I must admit, but then, the british psych lobby is planning to apply the PACE trial to children now. As crazy as it is, and how did this pass ethics board? There must be forces out there that perpetuates these things from happening. Who is at the top of the cartel? How far does it go?
     
  10. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    imo Horton genuinely thought he was bravely standing up for rigorous science against a small band of militant anti-science activists. He was too stupid to spot the problems with PACE, and possibly still doesn't understand them now. He was so supportive of PACE and condemning of patients who criticised it that he now cannot acknowledge the problems that everyone else sees.

    I do think that there's a side story about the way Horton placed himself in a position where he could no longer acknowledge how flawed PACE was. This seems like a clearly bad thing for a journal editor to do.
     
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  11. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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    Finally! Somebody with the pelotas in the right place to call it fraud!!!!!
     
  12. Kati

    Kati Patient in training

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    This:

     
  13. mfairma

    mfairma Senior Member

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    I was trying to make this point with a friend recently, but I couldn't convince him. Edge cases often demonstrate the functioning of the system. When the whole system -- medicine, media, and politics -- can fail so completely for so many years, as it has in this disease, how can you have faith in the certainty of the conclusions offered in other spaces? You can't, at least not absolutely so.

    Certainly, the imperatives of the system drive behaviors that are detrimental to the whole and it is hard to hold individuals accountable for behaviors driven by systemic factors, but, nevertheless, I don't think we can hold individuals blameless for complicity in promoting certainty despite low knowledge, even if the system holds up that behavior as ideal. The pressures of journalism may militate toward lightly researched articles and shallowly informed opinions and the pressures of medicine may do the same, but that, to me, doesn't excuse the certainty with which judgments are rendered.
     
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  14. Sean

    Sean Senior Member

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    Mr Horton may have no plans to correct his errors, but others do.
     
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  15. Sean

    Sean Senior Member

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    Cannot be emphasised enough.

    The PACE team, and their like-minded colleagues, could not have got away with all this if they had not had high level support and protection from the political and economic elite, and their useful idiots in the mainstream corporatist media.

    The real reason PACE is being so irrationally, relentlessly, and at times viciously defended, is that if it goes down so do a whole lot of other people and projects.

    This goes way past just little old PACE and psycho-social medicine. Waaaaaaaaaaaaay past.
     
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  16. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    I suspect so, particularly since much of the biopsychosocial agenda has close ties to political agendas and private vested interests (mainly insurance).

    I have said before that I feel a need for popcorn as this unfolds. I have issues with corn, but the way this is unfolding I would need to live next to a popcorn factory to supply me with enough popcorn.

    We have been waiting for this for decades. The PACE disgrace is just another in a long line of problem research, but its also the biggest and most influential. They should have learned the lesson with the FINE trial, but maybe they did, and that is why things went even more wrong with PACE.
     
  17. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    Also: another interesting peice - great work David Tuller!

    I've become so used to his work, and more recently the work of others, that I've almost stopped being grateful for it. I just take for granted that he is going to be slogging away, fighting to help improve things for us. I need to regain some perspective and start praising God for David Tuller.
     
    Daisymay, Mel9, Cornishbird and 16 others like this.
  18. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    When I read this sentence I felt like Maria twirling around in the mountains singing "The Hiiiiillllls are Aliiiive With the Sound of Muuuusic."

    Seriously, Tuller ought to have been the one who was knighted.
     
    Daisymay, Hutan, Cornishbird and 14 others like this.
  19. Large Donner

    Large Donner Senior Member

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    That's about as far as one can take stupid. Is there an infinite amount of stupid and can you double it. Can the universe even accommodate that amount of stupid? It must be an ever expanding amount of stupid the kind of stupid that runs out of dark matter to expand into in an infinite amount of stupid.

    The question is, if he really is that "stupid" who employed him and why?

    I think the problem for the Lancet is that they are afraid of being called an infinite amount of monkeys.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
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  20. Glycon

    Glycon World's Most Dangerous Hand Puppet

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    When you have dug yourself a grave so deep that your only hope is to play dumb and hope everyone ignores you as you frantically try to dig your way to China:

    CtALmDJWcAAQTtO.jpg
     
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