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Damn cats! Cats, Bartonella, XMRV and CFS

Discussion in 'Lyme Disease and Co-Infections' started by Fejal, Sep 24, 2010.

  1. free at last

    free at last Senior Member

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    Hi Fejal very interesting all of this. My fevers started around the time i had 4 cats, so i find this idea very interesting, especially the immuno compromised idea. i smoked a lot of pot back then which has been shown to reduce the immune response. couple this with a infection like this, and i really wonder about all this too. Dont know if im XMRV positive or not yet, but clearly there are different ways some one can be immuno surpressed.
    heres a extract i found

    qoute from Ron Hines DVM PhD

    People who have been scratched or bitten first develop one or more pustules (pimples) at the site of the wound. A few weeks later, the lymph nodes closest to the wound become swollen and tender. By then the wound may have completely healed and the person may have forgotten about the bite or scratch. These are usually the lymph nodes at the armpit, since most bites and scratches occur on the arms or hands. Mysteriously, patients with no known exposure to cats will occasionally develop the disease.

    Fever, headache and fatigue are common signs of this infection. Some people also develop tonsillitis and neck pain. It is rare for more serious signs to develop in healthy people and most people recover over the next three weeks without treatment.

    However, when a persons health is not good or the immune system that protects the person's body is compromised, a series of much more serious signs can occur. The symptoms of this atypical bartonellosis are highly variable but can even be fatal. Often these are people who have undergone organ transplants, chemotherapy or have AIDS. end of qoute
    XMRV or any immune supression i guess.
    In those types of conditions can this bacteria cause lifelong infection do you know ? possibly in cycles maybe ?

    heres the full link
    http://www.2ndchance.info/catscratch.htm
  2. Fejal

    Fejal *****

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    >In those types of conditions can this bacteria cause lifelong infection do you know ? possibly in cycles maybe ?

    Hi, free. Yes bartonella's a self sustaining organism. If something isn't done to restore the immune function it is chronic.

    Per Galaxy Labs, 85% of domestic cats carry bartonella. We only get it when our immunity is low. Cats are immune.

    As long as its the only thing suppressing the immune system then a cure should be possible.

    I had a papule (skin bump) that resolved right after the flea bites. The bites healed very strangely, with a bluish hue. Bartonella also gives a distrinctive streaky rash which I have had.
  3. free at last

    free at last Senior Member

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    mmmmm Not sure what to think ? i dont remember any skin bump, or streaky rash, though i have noticed a slight rash looking colour on my upper chest, had it for ages. but dont remember any streaky rash think i would have noticed that. cheers for the info. wonder if the streaky rash doesnt allways appear. Crazy we have to become our own doctors. at least we dont belittle our own conditions if labled cfs/ me which i have been
    Certainly a interesting discussion for those who had lots of fevers, and cats
  4. Fejal

    Fejal *****

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  5. Fejal

    Fejal *****

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    I noticed that with eight hour dosing of milk thistle I was getting cold hands, feet and nose tip in the last hour with a slow return of body temperature taking another two hours so I surmised the dosing interval was too long and shortened it to every six hours. This improved my rising body temperature to 97.0 F (normal range). Nodes continue to slowly decrease while remaining tender. Fatigue decrease sustained.
  6. thecatswhiskers

    thecatswhiskers

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    Bartonella positive

    Hi,

    I'm in the UK and I've tested positive for Bartonella (aswell as Lyme and Ehrlichia). When I 1st became ill (1987) I was working as a veterinary nurse and had to leave due to ill health. I've not regained health since. I've been round animals all my life and rescued waifs and strays.

    I have every symptom of bartonella and when I first read the symptom picture I thought I was reading my health history! The only symptom/sign I've not had (or not remembered to have had) is the papule or rash. It's hard to believe you have it sometimes when that is missing.

    I was diagnosed two-ish years ago and have not yet started to treat it (scared of the antibiotics in all honesty! :) Reading what people have tried for it here is great ...... Please keep that info coming!

    I still love cats (and animals in general) though!

    Take care all.

    PS. The veterinary surgery I worked at was called 'Barton Lodge' ..... Maybe I should have it renamed as 'bartonella lodge'! :)
  7. Fejal

    Fejal *****

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    hi whiskers,

    If you have symptoms of immune suppression: low body temperature and an inabilility to get a fever then it's worth doing the Marshall Protocol therapeutic probe where you stop vitamin D and sun exposure and take benecar q6h to see if that produces immunopathologic symptoms (photophobia, bone pain, etc). If benecar isn't available try using standardized milk thistle q6h to block the NF-kb overactivation.

    Both bartinella and lyme disrupt the same immunological pathways to block macrophages from fighting their infections. I believe that to get well you have to use supplements to restore the pathways otherwise the antibiotics alone don't work because they don't get inside the cells well enough to kill all the bacteria so it recurs.

    Try the therapeutic probe and see what it does to your symptoms.

    The other supplement necessary to restore the immune function is mangosteen q8h.

    As for me after this nightmare I definitely don't like cats!
  8. Fejal

    Fejal *****

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    AM rising body temperature day 2 of milk thistle q6h is up to 97.5F. That's a normal range treated.

    Yesterday I noted one streak rash on my abdomen after a hot bath.

    It looks like milk thistle is q6h is a good substitute for benecar if combined with vitamin D and light avoidance in bartinella and lyme infected patients.
  9. Fejal

    Fejal *****

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    Did some research on vitamin D receptors and came up with a working theory of the pathogenesis for bartonella.
    Initially the number of vitamin D receptors is decreased through a viral infection. Next bartonella coinfects, blocking NF-kb, and caspase 3, further reducing receptor numbers. Excess 1,25 D now encounters fewer receptors so existing receptors are overstimulated, causing fatigue and desensitization.

    To reverse it makes sense to:

    1. Avoid light which rapidly increases 1,25D because it would likely overstimulate the receptors until the bacteria are killed.
    2. Use supplements to restore immunocompetence.
    3. Supplement low dose vitamin D (500 IU not sure of best interval-use symptom tolerance to determine) to increase intracellular antibiotic peptides and decrease systemic inflammation.

    I'll be trying this as an experiment.
  10. Fejal

    Fejal *****

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    I made some pretty great discoveries today. First, the only vitamin D in store supplements and foods is 1,25 vitamin D aka D3 aka cholecalcifol. This means had I purchased these items and ingested them I would have suffered from 1,25D overdose symptoms (nausea, photosensitivity, etc) just as I do from light exposure to the skin. Instead I deduced that I can get 1,25D from either canned mackeral or cod liver fish oil (vitamin shoppe generic). Today I had two servings of mackeral for 800 iu of 1,25D. At 9 pm took 400 IU mixed tocopherols (vit E). Mackeral did not adversely affect my body temperature but did lower my overall inflammation and improve my mood. I took about half the usual NSAID dose of 1200 mg ibuprofen 1 g acetaminophen.

    The mechanism for L-form bacteria's sensitivity to D3 is theorized to be equivalent to smoking's nicotine addiction:

    1. Try smoking. Toxin exposure causes nausea.
    2. Try smoking again. Liver upregulates detox pathways to clear toxins faster, side effect is better nicotine tolerance and less toxin accumulation.
    3. Nicotine blood levels from smoking increase causing euphoria due to dopamine increase.
    4. Overstimulation of dopamine receptors causes decreases in the number of receptors causing the high to wear off.
    5. Now dopamine receptors are desensitized so smokers feel less pleasure unless they smoke.

    For L-form infection:

    1. Viral infection decreases number of vitamin D receptors (VDR).
    2. L-form bacteria exposure and colonizes, further decreases receptors.
    3. Body responds to infection by maximizing production of 1,25D (D3) causing an overdose.
    4. Overstimulation of VDR receptors causes decreases in the number of receptors causing the cells to stop receiving signals to make antibacterial peptides.
    5. D3 is now in a vicious cycle where tolerance causes less effect until eventually no effect.

    I found some interesting research regarding supplementation in Navy submariners. Doses of 400 IU daily D3 did not prevent bone turnover. I"m wondering if the problem could be due to decreased absorption due to overly frequent dosing; something we often see occurring with other supplements. Moreover, because D3 is the active form (1,25 D cholecalciferol) the body can't regulate its stores through feedback and it would be prone to overdose). You need 2000 IU/day D3 to overcome the resistance effect. This looks suspiciously similar to the above theorized D3 resistance and makes me suspect that daily dosing of D3 is unhealthy.

    The submariner paper also quoted studies showing that VDRs are located on monocytes and lymphocytes47 and seem to promote self tolerance which is the ability of the immune system to not attack host tissues.48,49 This loss of autoimmunity may be a factor in CFS with a presentation similar to myastheia gravis where autoantibodies attack acetylcholine neurotransmitters. (Gertner, J. Vitamin D Supplementation in Submariners. December 2, 2008. Naval Submarine Medical Research Laboratory. NSMRL/50210/TR--2008-1267. http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA498140)
  11. Fejal

    Fejal *****

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    10/23/2010 am rising body temp 97.2 F. Lymph nodes very mobile and reduced. Mild nausea and feel feverish. Good signs.
  12. Fejal

    Fejal *****

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    Found out that the cod liver oil is D3 not D2. Had about 40 minutes of body temperature suppression to 95.2 F (scary) after taking a 1,800 IU dose then recovered. Found out that body temp drop is common with Jared-Herxheimer (IP) reactions. Getting IP symptoms, some nausea, bone pain. Not bad though, feels about moderate in intensity. Body temperature is way up to 98 F now.

    One thing that really blew me away is that I had some HPV lesions for a few days and they literally scabbed over and are 90% healed literally overnight since taking the vitamin D.

    I'm not surprised the Marshall Protocol has documented patient injuries, it's quackery.
  13. Fejal

    Fejal *****

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    Treatment is moving along. Had my first direct sun exposure in 14 months. This was nice but my body is herxing like crazy. When it is bad I now get chest pain over my heart (not exertional) along with the rest of the usual IP symptoms (bone pain, photosensitivity, tinnitis, depression, anxiety). This is exactly like when I was taking the MP antibiotics except I'm just on BALI supplements and vitamin D.

    It's a tough call to decide how to treat. Given the herx I'm inclined to just let my body level out and see how it does for a week. Additional targeted antibiotics would just increase the herx (IP) magnitude possibly beyond what I can handle. On the other hand, once IP dies down it's time for abx. It will be interesting to see if my body can make any progress against the bartinella spp. New Dr.s visit coming up 11/3/2010.
  14. karynwolfe

    karynwolfe

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    Cats have been proven to transmit at least five of the several dozen (recognized) bartonella strains. I most likely have the b. quintana strain, because my symptoms very reliably alternate every 5-6 days and match descriptions of Trench fever. (Of course this bacteria doesn't care what name you give it--it just gets you sick.)

    I've tested negative for bartonella two times so far, but I definitely have it. Doxycycline really helped me but I had to stop prematurely; five months was definitely not enough and it actually came back worse. I got it from a cat and its fleas.

    The "pressure" and pain you feel over your chest is so common.

    Also, IGeneX just came out with a new "Bartonella FISH" test that checks for several different strains, not just b. henselae like before. It's only one blood sample, though.

    (ETA: This happened just two years ago for me, though, and did not predate the M.E.)
  15. Fejal

    Fejal *****

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    Hello Karynw,

    Thanks for the response. It's reassuring that others with this bug experienced the same problems; it points to a correct diagnosis. I think the problem with bart is that it blocks several immune pathways and medicine isn't used to prescribing agents to restore them, rather they just throw antibiotics at the bug, make it dormant and then it recurrs.

    Galaxy labs has the best bart test I've found. It detects 10 strains. The head is a PhD with research citations. http://www.galaxydx.com/web/

    My previous MD checked on the Igenix test and they can't detect bartonella sp.

    The tricky thing with my disease is that you can't rush treatment or you risk a fatal cytokine storm from out of control inflammation. Currently I take around 1600 mg ibuprofen and 2g acetaminophen per day to manage the inflammatory headaches.
  16. karynwolfe

    karynwolfe

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    Your MD might not be aware of this new test, given that they JUST came out with it. It's not even on their website yet, but when you order the test kit now they include the forms for it.

    Bartonella FISH Test - In-situ Hybridization
    Test code: 289
    Sample requirement: 1 ml whole blood (EDTA)
    $198.00

    Bartonella FISH test detects bacteria of the genus Bartonella (includes B. bovis, B. henselae, B. quintana, and B. vinsonii) in whole blood smears. The test is performed on EDTA whole blood. This test is useful for detecting active Bartonella infections.​

    ;)

    Your disease? What disease do you have?

    Also, I know someone who says Houttuynia (get from Kalax) helps bartonella, and I have reason to believe oregano oil also helps (even though I can't find much on it) because it made my bart symptoms herx a lot. (Houttuynia also helps control the herpes class viruses, if you have a problem with those.)
  17. Fejal

    Fejal *****

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    Then it's not as sensitive as the Galaxy three day PCR. It would probably miss my species. Fish isn't confirmatory also.

    I think I have one of the bartonella spp. species. Antibiotics are the only effective cure. Essential oils are toxic.

    One thing I wonder about is the possibility of inducing a cytokine storm if treatment is too rapid (excess herxheimer reaction). Trevor Marshall warns about this.

    http://www.benbrew.com/lb/lb.html

    [​IMG]
    Invasion of the Body Snatchers
  18. karynwolfe

    karynwolfe

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    ...Which is why I do not use essential oils. ;) You can get it in a gel capsule suspended in olive oil, a safe alternative.

    Ah, I see, I'm sure you'll come back and tell us what the tests reveal.

    In Lyme treatment Parsley and Burbur extract (liquid) can be taken in water every fifteen minutes to help with herxing; I'm not sure if this applies to bartonella, though it seems to me the result would be the same.
  19. Fejal

    Fejal *****

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    The point with cytokine storm is that if you treat too fast you can die.

    Given that the antibiotics are proven to be effective why use the plant extracts? There's no evidence that people are cured with them.

    The only supplements I can see being useful are the ones that unblock bart's blocking of the immune system.

    Yes I'll report findings. It's been very hard getting this disease diagnosed. A board certified infectious disease doctor missed it. I had to diagnose it using herx responses while on the Marshall Protocol to different supplements to show the specific blocked immune pathways. The pathways indicated spyrochetes or bartonella spp. Negative bloodwork ruled out spyrochetes so therefore it has to be bart. Thanks for nothing modern medicine.
  20. Jenny

    Jenny Senior Member

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    What is your evidence for this, Fejal? What studies have been done? Which oils in particular are you referring to? Toxic in what sense?

    Jenny

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