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D-ribose - can it make you feel bad?

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Sasha, May 13, 2013.

  1. rlc

    rlc Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus97, RE

    What’s going on is that large amounts of reference ranges for many tests are wrong. The scientists have proven that they are wrong, told everyone about it, and labs, medical authorities etc, have ignored the scientists and keep using out of date reference ranges. In the country I live NZ, the reference ranges are different all over the country, and different again in the Hospitals, and then they wonder why they can’t diagnose people properly, (sigh, despair).

    It is common for many reference ranges to be wrong; some labs haven’t updated their reference ranges for decades.

    Dr Mirza states in this review http://www.amazon.com/review/R28ZY8OYSWP0R

    “The key is not to fall a victim to outdated laboratory reference ranges. On average, the key lab values in the USA are outdated behind new research by 17 years. Some values are outdated by a half a century.”

    Frequently wrong reference ranges are

    B12, should be above 300 pg/mL (>221 pmol/L), or even higher. Homocyteine should always be checked if high, even if the B12 level is above these ranges it indicates B12 deficiency.

    TSH should be 0.3-2.5

    Vitamin D3 should be 32-100 ng/ml

    Transferrin saturation should be under 45%

    Fasting Glucose <100 mg/dl (5.5 mmol/l)

    Postprandial plasma glucose should be <140 mg/dl (7.7 mmol/l) at 30-minute, 60-minute, 90-minute, and 120-minute

    To quote from another Dr Mirza article about glucose testing.

    “25% of the US population have metabolic syndrome. Many of these have impaired fasting glucose or impaired glucose tolerance (IGT). These pre- diabetic conditions cause fatigue via glycosuria. Fasting glucose measurement is not nearly sufficient to detect early glucose intolerance. A 2-hr glucose tolerance test (OGTT) is absolutely necessary to detect IGT defined as plasma glucose of > 130 from 30 minute- 120 minute during OGTT.”
    See http://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/11/01/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-nice-and-cdc-miss-boat

    The fasting glucose test should be used as a screening method to pick up those that are seriously hypoglycemic, i.e. diabetic, to save money by not doing the OGTT test on everyone. Those that do not fail the fasting glucose test, but are suspected of having hypoglycemia should then get the OGTT test using the correct reference ranges.

    Instead what is happening is that doctors just do the fasting glucose test it comes back ok, so they say nothing is wrong, mis the diagnosis, and then give the patient a CFS diagnosis, because doctors feel obligated to give everyone a diagnosis, even if they haven’t got a clue what’s going on.

    All your fasting glucose result means is that you are not seriously Hypoglycemic; you need the OGTT test using the correct reference ranges, to find out what is really going on.

    Hope this helps

    All the best
    Radio likes this.
  2. rlc

    rlc Senior Member

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    Hi Joel, yes Mito dysfunction isn’t proven in CFS, what is being found is that a very large number of chronic illnesses cause mito dysfunction, it is looking like almost any serious chronic illness wears out the mito, and understanding this has been said to be a new frontier in medicine.

    Because so many people are not being tested properly using correct reference ranges (no CFS definition, including the ICC makes any mention of the wrong reference ranges or even manages to include all the other disease that cause CFS like symptoms or the tests for them, to rule them out) So we are left in the situation of just having to wonder if the failed mito results in ME patients, are from ME patients or misdiagnosed patients, or both.

    RE D-ribose, what happens when people are short of D ribose is the body compensates for this by using glucose instead, all the time. This is what happens in the likes of marathon runners, using glucose instead of D ribose causes a rapid buildup of lactic acid in the body causing fatigue, muscle pain and brain fog. Someone who doesn’t have enough D ribose ends up felling like they have just run a marathon every second of their lives.

    Taking D ribose will in the space of three weeks, or less, cure this problem and shows if a lack of D ribose was the problem. People will often need to take other things like Co-q10 and magnesium etc, and Vitamin D deficiency needs to be cured, because vitamin D deficiency causes low phosphorus and phosphorus is needed because it is a vital part of ATP, which is what the Mito make that gives us energy. Obviously if the patient does have another serious disease, say Addison’s they will still have the symptoms of that even if the mito are healed by correct treatment. It is really far more important to properly diagnose the disease causing the mito problems, then the mito will tend to heal themselves. Rather then spending large amounts of money trying to correct mito function and D ribose levels, which is a symptom of the other diseases, not a disease in itself.

    The ending of the lactic acid build up should help the patient’s body deal with oxidative stress, in fact the lactic acid build up may be a major part of causing the oxidative stress. Either way the increase in health caused by ending the lactic acid creating cycle will be far greater then and trouble caused with oxidative stress.

    D Ribose, has a unusual history it is one of the few supplements to have been discovered by science, rather than having been used as an alternative medicine, and then the scientists trying to work out what’s in the alternative medicine. It was initially studied for its role in heart disease patients, heart disease cause large amounts of oxidative stress, what they found was heart disease patients improve dramatically on D Ribose, it then started being used by elite athletes, and was found to dramatically increase performance and stopped the body resorting to burning Glucose, which stops the athletes get the lactic acid build up.

    The only side effects found, were taking stupidly large amount can cause upset stomach and lose bowel movement,(but this happens to anyone who consumes large amounts of sugar in a short space of time) the one exception was that hypoglycemic people, got worse, because D ribose has a small blood sugar lowering effect, which makes hypoglycemia worse. Which is why I’m suggesting anyone having a bad reaction to D ribose should consider getting their glucose levels properly checked using the right tests and reference ranges.

    Like I say there maybe some other thing that causes bad reactions to D ribose that hasn’t been discovered. But to the best of my knowledge, hypoglycemia is the only thing that causes trouble with D ribose.

    All the best Joel
    snowathlete, Radio, maryb and 2 others like this.
  3. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Just found this file I made during my brief flirtation with d-ribose (I have put an interesting/possibly-significant bit in red):

    from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1904121

    Klin Wochenschr. 1991 Feb 26;69(4):151-5.
    Ribose administration during exercise: effects on substrates and products of energy metabolism in healthy subjects and a patient with myoadenylate deaminase deficiency.
    Gross M, Kormann B, Zöllner N.

    Medizinische Poliklinik, Universität München, FRG.

    Abstract

    Nine healthy men and a patient with myoadenylate deaminase deficiency were exercised on a bicycle ergometer (30 minutes, 125 Watts) with and without oral ribose administration at a dose of 2 g every 5 minutes of exercise. Plasma or serum levels of glucose, free fatty acids, lactate, ammonia and hypoxanthine and the urinary hypoxanthine excretion were determined. After 30 minutes of exercise without ribose intake the healthy subjects showed significant increases in plasma lactate (p less than 0.05), ammonia (p less than 0.01) and hypoxanthine (p less than 0.05) concentrations and a decrease in serum glucose concentration (p less than 0.05). When ribose was administered, the plasma lactate concentration increased significantly higher (p less than 0.05) and the increase in plasma hypoxanthine concentration was no longer significant. The patient showed the same pattern of changes in serum or plasma concentrations with exercise with the exception of hypoxanthine in plasma which increased higher when ribose was administered.

    from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1776826

    Ann Nutr Metab. 1991;35(5):297-302.
    Effects of oral ribose on muscle metabolism during bicycle ergometer in AMPD-deficient patients.
    Wagner DR, Gresser U, Zöllner N.

    Medizinische Poliklinik, Universität München, FRG.

    Abstract

    Three patients with AMP deaminase deficiency (AMPD deficiency) performed exercise on a bicycle ergometer with increasing work load without and with administration of ribose (3 g p.o. every 10 min, beginning 1 h before exercise until the end). The patients performed exercise until heart rate was 200 minus age. Maximum capacity was not increased by administration of ribose, but postexertional muscle stiffness and cramps disappeared almost completely in 2 of 3 AMPD-deficient patients. Plasma concentrations of lactate and inosine were increased in AMPD-deficient patients after oral administration of ribose. Our data suggest that ribose may both serve as an energy source and enhance the de novo synthesis of purine nucleotides.

    from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11641371

    J Appl Physiol. 2001 Nov;91(5):2275-81.
    No effects of oral ribose supplementation on repeated maximal exercise and de novo ATP resynthesis.
    Eijnde BO, Van Leemputte M, Brouns F, Van Der Vusse GJ, Labarque V, Ramaekers M, Van Schuylenberg R, Verbessem P, Wijnen H, Hespel P.

    Exercise Physiology and Biomechanics Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology, Faculty of Physical Education and Physiotherapy, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, B-3001 Heverlee, Belgium.

    Abstract

    A double-blind randomized study was performed to evaluate the effect of oral ribose supplementation on repeated maximal exercise and ATP recovery after intermittent maximal muscle contractions. Muscle power output was measured during dynamic knee extensions with the right leg on an isokinetic dynamometer before (pretest) and after (posttest) a 6-day training period in conjunction with ribose (R, 4 doses/day at 4 g/dose, n = 10) or placebo (P, n = 9) intake. The exercise protocol consisted of two bouts (A and B) of maximal contractions, separated by 15 s of rest. Bouts A and B consisted of 15 series of 12 contractions each, separated by a 60-min rest period. During the training period, the subjects performed the same exercise protocol twice per day, with 3-5 h of rest between exercise sessions. Blood samples were collected before and after bouts A and B and 24 h after bout B. Knee-extension power outputs were approximately 10% higher in the posttest than in the pretest but were similar between P and R for all contraction series. The exercise increased blood lactate and plasma ammonia concentrations (P < 0.05), with no significant differences between P and R at any time. After a 6-wk washout period, in a subgroup of subjects (n = 8), needle-biopsy samples were taken from the vastus lateralis before, immediately after, and 24 h after an exercise bout similar to the pretest. ATP and total adenine nucleotide content were decreased by approximately 25 and 20% immediately after and 24 h after exercise in P and R. Oral ribose supplementation with 4-g doses four times a day does not beneficially impact on postexercise muscle ATP recovery and maximal intermittent exercise performance.

    Per http://corvalen.douglaslabs.com/D-Ribose Abstracts/Fenstad 2008 Dose Effects of D-Ribose on Glucose and Purine Metabolites Int J Nutri.pdf called 'Dose Effects of D-Ribose on Glucose and Purine Metabolites' (not apparently in peer-reviewed journals and poss conflicts of interests detected) d-ribose increase uric acid levels and also increased lactate levels in younger study group (24-30) but not older group (40-50) who had decreased lactate.

    Common to most studies appears to be hypoglycaemia. Some find a spike in insulin production.
  4. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Some sites recommend using carnitine with alpha-lipoic acid. I'm taking a combined supplement which seems to suit me well. I felt a dramatic surge in energy on first taking it (not the 'wired' unpleasant adrenaline-type but a healthy-feeling energy), although I haven't noticed that since, and no adverse effect on sleep. I couldn't tolerate CoQ10 or d-ribose though.
  5. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Why do you need to take alpha lipoic acid with carnitine? I remember reading that somewhere, but I don't remember what the reason was and I couldn't relocate that information when I looked for it later. BTW, alpha lipoic acid can deplete your body of biotin. Biotin is good to take either way, but it's especially necessary when taking ALA.
  6. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I can't remember where I read the info but I'm fairly sure it wasn't just the University of Maryland site, as that only refers to rat studies, and I disregard findings in non-human animals in connection with humans as the correlation is very poor. There are quite a lot of supplements that combine them.
  7. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    I've had two doses so far. No differences noticed...hummmm
  8. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    How much are you taking?

    I don't think I felt anything one way or another after the first few doses (I was taking 1tsp 3/day at first) but I was expecting to feel better, not worse and might not have been paying much attention to feeling worse (would have attributed it to something else).
  9. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    It came with a little scoop, about 2 grams. 3 times a day. I may well increase the dose, but given your experience I thought I would start slow.

    Oh, and it does smell/taste a bit like a bad caramel
  10. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Mine came with a scoop that looks like about 5ml (I have some cooking ones to compare it to) and it says that one of those is 5g (surprisingly). Sounds like yours has sensibly provided a much smaller scoop!
  11. rlc

    rlc Senior Member

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    Hi Joel, to soon to notice effects, dosage according to this source is 5 grams 3x a day, see http://www.endfatigue.com/web-newsletters/Newsletter_3_questions_d-ribose.html obviously a good idea to start slowly to test for any bad side effects at first, on full dose, if nothing improves in 3-4 weeks then a deficiency in D ribose is not your problem, according to what I have read,and something else is causing your symptoms.

    All the best
  12. rosie26

    rosie26 Senior Member

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    I will never stop taking D Ribose, it's been a big help to me. I started on it in November last year and I am not kidding when I say I noticed its good effects in an hour. I suffer so badly with inflammation in the muscles, aching and running out of energy. I could actually feel the inflammation lessening and I don't get the half as bad inflammation now in my muscles. It has also given me a lovely bit more of energy. !!!

    Interestingly it has eased a lot of the horrible nausea that I have had all the way through ME. Which tells me a lot of my
    nausea was coming from inflammation in my muscles/body.

    D Ribose is certainly no cure, but it's been a tremendous help to me.

    I take the brand "Drs Best D Ribose" it comes in powdered form with a scoop, 250g container. I take a scoop (1 tsp) in the morning after breakfast. I mix it in 1/2 cup of water. And also take same dose after dinner at night.
    Sasha likes this.
  13. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    Someone on another board with a knowledgeable doctor said that her doctor recommended taking D Ribose six times a day with the last dose at bedtime. She said to start with 1/2 tsp per dose and work up to 1 tsp per dose.
    Sasha likes this.
  14. Townie

    Townie

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    I just wanted to add my pennyworth in about trying D Ribose - I started taking it a week ago, just x 2 850mg capsules, three times a day. I had to stop yesterday because of a massive upswing in blood sugar problems. I already only just manage to modify blood sugar fluctuations with diet, so I think for some people - you don't even need large quantities of D Ribose for it not to be suitable. It's a shame, because I did experience increased energy at first. I'm not trying to speak against anyone trying it - as I can clearly see it has helped many, many people.
    maryb and Sasha like this.
  15. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    Have tried taking just 1 capsule at a time? Do you take it with plenty of food? I have a powdered form that I can mix into food. I think that reduces its effect on blood sugar.
    rosie26 likes this.
  16. Townie

    Townie

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    Thanks Little Bluestem, I will give it a try - right now I am going to rest off with it (enjoying the break) - and report back!
  17. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    I couldn't tolerate d-ribose either - having just read ric 's post it makes sense now. I wasn't aware that my blood sugar levels were fluctuating so much.
    I was recently advised that my night sweats were a symptom of this, I cut my carbs right down and they have subsided massively.
    Our GP's have got it so very wrong. It took a ME specialist doc to diagnose this immediately on me describing the symptom.

    I had a fasting glucose test that was normal - 12months ago...
  18. Townie

    Townie

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    Thanks Maryb, everyone is at different points with these things - I think there's no harm in trying what works for others as long as people are careful. I took magnesium after people said it worked for them and it worked really well for me to relieve muscle pain - a bit expensive in the powder form, thinking about going back now. With blood sugar lows I stick to a low carb diet and pace my meals - I'm coming up for some tests with the NHS due to these issues getting out of hand, so I guess I will think again which supplements are best for me - once I have a bit more information.
  19. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    Townie
    magnesium is a biggie for me too - I can't function without supplementing it.
    I stopped taking it for a few weeks a while ago and had a lot of pain and other symptoms intensified - it confimed my opinion about how much I needed it.
    good luck with the NHS :rolleyes: tests
  20. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    I get low blood sugar problems for ribose if I take it on an empty stomach, but am OK if I take a moderate dose with plenty of food.
    rosie26 likes this.

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