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D-Lactic Acidosis in CFS

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Glynis Steele, Oct 9, 2010.

  1. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Sorry to hear that GSE didn't help you.

    I did a fair bit of reading up on GSE and thought that the evidence was reasonably good that it was effective, at least in vitro, and I think that at least some manufacturers give assurances that their product is not contaminated. There is a paper here on in vitro tests done with a pure product: http://hrcak.srce.hr/file/26006

    I wonder whether some of the accusations come from pharma companies wanting to discredit natural medicine? I don't know - just wondering.

    I haven't had much in the way of gut testing, but have had problems on and off since childhood. I was rushed to hospital as a child with severe gut pain that was thought to be appendicitis but wasn't; however, my colon was found to be inflamed. The only other test I can think of was a FOBS test a few years ago (negative).

    I lost what little faith I had left in doctors in 2010 following hospitalisation due to severe hyponatraemia. The medics have consistently refused to take my views on board about possible causes, and insisted that I must have been overhydrated, when test findings show the opposite. D-lactic acidosis can cause hyponatraemia.
     
  2. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Christine (Dog Person) wanted us to see the following :

    "The following indicates that when your body is starved for manganese, it increases these types of bacteria since they help transport it into the body, along with cadmium. So those that have elevated cadmium (any amount is bad, not just high levels) can see that they are very low in manganese and the body is attempting to bring it in whenever it can find some from the diet.

    Metal Ions in Biological Systems, Volume 37, Manganese and Its Role In Biological Processes, edited by Astrid Sigel and Helmut Sigel, Copyright 2000

    "Lactic acid bacteria accumulate remarkably high concentrations of manganese. Lactobacillus plantarum accumulates 30-35 mM concentrations of manganese [13]. Since manganese can act as a scavenger of superoxide, the extraordinarily high level of manganese accumulated in L. plantarum bypasses the requirement for a superoxide dismutase [14,15]. Studies by Archibald and Duong have revealed a specific active transport system for manganese in L. plantarum that is driven by a membrane proton gradient [16]. Interestingly, the calculated Km for manganese uptake was comparable to that observed for E. coli, S. aureus, and B. subtilis; however, in accordance with the high demand for manganese in L. plantarum, the velocity of uptake was orders of magnitude higher than other bacterial systems characterized [16]. As is the case with S. aureus and B. subtilis, cadmium uptake in L. plantarum involves the manganese transporter. Uptake of both cadmium and manganese is induced by metal starvation, suggesting the existence of a regulatory feedback loop for control of manganese transport [16]."
     
  3. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    I did pretty much that, too. That's why I decided to try it.

    May I suggest the Metametrix GI Effects Complete Profile, then? Distributor in UK is Nutrition Geeks.

    Welcome to the club! :D
     
  4. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Interesting. Does anyone know of any evidence that people with ME are manganese-deficient? I just did a quick search through the abstracts of research held by ME Research UK (which is over 1500 pages long) and manganese isn't mentioned, unless its abbreviated form Mn is used.

    I'm more persuaded at the moment by a paper that finds that acidosis and hyponatraemia can be caused by deficiency in the hormone ACTH, which is required for the production of cortisol, and to which ME sufferers have been found to have auto-antibodies, which could explain our low cortisol levels. There may be no safe way to boost ACTH levels except what sounds perverse, which is to temporarily reduce cortisol levels, which apparently can trigger more ACTH activity (if I remember rightly). ACTH supplementation carries the usual risks accompanying steroid use.

    An interesting paper on ACTH deficiency and hyponatraemia can be read here:

    http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/89/10/5271.1.full

    There is only a brief specific mention of acidosis but this is implied by low plasma bicarbonate (which I had when I had hyponatraemia).
     
  5. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Thanks for the suggestion. I'll see how things go with the interventions I am trying at the moment, as finances are very limited due to this illness. I've started adding about 5g of sodium bicarbonate per day to my regime, which from a few searches of reputable medical sites looks as though it's worth trying. Anyone else here tried bicarb?
     
  6. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    Given that manganese is needed by the mitochondrial superoxide dismutase, and given the oxidative stress typical of people with ME, I wouldn't be surprised if a deficiency were to emerge.
     
  7. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    It's possible, but the body doesn't need much manganese, and my daily multivit/mineral supplement provides 100% RDA (this is 2 mg in the UK). Too much is dangerous - see here:

    http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/manganese-000314.htm

    Also, oxidative stress is implicated in a very wide range of conditions, can have a wide range of causes, and can be treated in many ways. I think that taking manganese would be a bit of a shot in the dark, and could do more harm than good. I've just found a thread about it here:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?8971-SODASE-TEST-RESULT-manganese-deficiency-help

    Is anyone here taking it now and, if so, have they seen any benefits?
     
  8. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

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    Hi meSci,

    Manganese may present a huge problem of absorption and a lot of minerals inhibit its action. It is preferably supplemented alone, and not within a multimineral formula.
     
  9. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    I am taking it and it is giving the wow factor. If I lower my dose it shows within an hour in my urine and very soon, my energy levels.

    I am taking it following the advice of Dog Person as it showed up as very deficient in my Hair Mineral Analysis along with b2 which was also extremely deficient as are a lot of PWC.

    I am taking 4 times the recommended amount (WaterOz) which does not give the dosage but can take up to 8 times apparently according to the effect I get in order to repair the damage done by the deficiency. I am balancing it with the b2 and b12 to get the signs of the right amount, that is, dark brown stool and yellow urine (apart from the fluorescent b2 urine) This shows that my RBC`s are using iron now instead of storing it and more APT is being produced.

    It is quite remarkable for me to see good results soon after taking supplements - I am so used to taking things just because I believe they will help.

    I am not taking any other b apart from the ones I mention as I am getting them from my food and there is sufficient b2 not to `take them down`.
     

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