The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Cytokine signature associated with disease severity in chronic fatigue syndrome patients

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by AndyPR, Jul 31, 2017.

  1. Marco

    Marco Grrrrrrr!

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    Exactly. 'Within normal parameters' suggests the problem may lie with signalling/receptors or some other immune signal associated with 'inflammation'.
     
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  2. Londinium

    Londinium Senior Member

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    Agreed, which is why my first concern was around this. Correcting for FDR is a base requirement IMHO but is not sufficient in and of itself.

    However, grouping by severity looks to my untrained eye as being one of the first ways one would split the data rather than some of the other studies like the one (Peterson?) that only got to statistical significance by creating a whole new category of 'atypical' that included such gems as 'got it on holiday' (I paraphrase, but only just). Correlating by severity is analogous to doing a dose-response curve so doesn't feel like the data has been tortured too much to give p<0.05. It's also consistent with previous and upcoming longitudinal findings so I think it's worth giving the benefit of the doubt.
     
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  3. AndyPR

    AndyPR Senior Member

  4. slysaint

    slysaint Senior Member

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  5. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    I think it´s quite likely that cytokine levels are depressed from where they ´should´ be, i.e. patient´s immune systems adapt to the constant stimulation of higher levels of LPS by downregulating inflammatory cytokines, but in severely ill patients the levels of LPS are so high (as reported by KDM, who first reported the raised levels of LPS established by Hanson) that even with the downregulation the levels of inflammatory cytokines are still above controls. As I suggested in my blog, I think research will eventually show that measuring both these factors after exercise will show a much clearer separation between patients and controls.
     
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  6. Sean

    Sean Senior Member

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    I would like to see this study done using with a 2-day challenge.
     
  7. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    So, does anyone know of other immune signals that are associated with inflammation?
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
  8. Marco

    Marco Grrrrrrr!

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    I have my own suspect.
     
  9. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Well, when you bring them in, please hold a press conference.
     
  10. Gijs

    Gijs Senior Member

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    Cytokines will not bring a valid test for ME/CFS. These finding(s), like TGF B is well known for more than decades. They found it in 1991. Sorry for Stanford, but their findings are useless for a diagnostic test at his point.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
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  11. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Gijs, can you tell us a piece of research that you were enthusiastic about?
     
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  12. Gijs

    Gijs Senior Member

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    Yes, there are more....

    Brain Res. 1999 Nov 6;846(2):145-53
    Transforming growth factor-beta activated during exercise in brain depresses spontaneous motor activity of animals. Relevance to central fatigue
    Inoue K, Yamazaki H, Manabe Y, Fukuda C, Hanai K, Fushiki T
    Laboratory of Nutrition Chemistry, Division of Applied Life Sciences, Graduate School of Agriculture, Kyoto University, Kyoto, Japan


    Physiol Behav. 1998 May;64(2):185-90
    Release of a substance that suppresses spontaneous motor activity in the brain by physical exercise
    Inoue K, Yamazaki H, Manabe Y, Fukuda C, Fushiki T
    Division of Applied Life Sciences, Graduate School of Agriculture, Kyoto University, Japan

    This one is even from 1991...

    Cytokine (1991) 3: 292-8
    Altered cytokine release in peripheral blood mononuclear cell cultures from patients with the Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
    Chao CC, Janoff EN, Hu SX, Thomas K, Gallagher M, Tsang M, Peterson PK
    Department of Medicine, Hennepin County Medical Centre, Minneapolis, MN 55415
     
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  13. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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    But even if they are, the fact that it was published in a journal like PNAS and the media echo it has created will do a lot of good. Many more people will now have heard of the disease and hopefully at least some will take it more seriously.

    Thank you, Dr Montoya (et al.) :thumbsup:
     
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  14. John Mac

    John Mac Senior Member

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  15. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    One from the 21st century?
     
  16. Gijs

    Gijs Senior Member

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    @msf, I think you mean 20st century? 1991 :)
     
  17. Demepivo

    Demepivo Dolores Abernathy

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    Alan Carson has taken to Twitter to talk cytokines. Unfortunately for him Keith Geraghty was soon on the case

    Thread starts with

     
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  18. Demepivo

    Demepivo Dolores Abernathy

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  19. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    Those are very interesting points! The other thing I wonder about is the uniqueness of each persons micro-biome and therefore the unique set of toxins, from the different pathogenic bacteria, on each persons immune system, getting into the bloodstream.

    Would all the different toxins, endotoxins and exotoxins, cause the same immune response in every person? I don't really know but my guess would be probably not.

    That could lead to different cytokine profiles in many, if not all and therefore no clear consistent findings in these cytokine studies.

    Jim
     
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  20. Gijs

    Gijs Senior Member

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    It is also known that depression can be caused by the immunesystem. The other way around! And who said the patiënts in the Montoya study were depressed?
     
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