Snow Leopard
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Why do they choose these ridiculous headlines? Almost all of them do it. Why!?! Do they lack social awareness?
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Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.
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The results of Lipkin et al. did find mean TGF-beta elevated in short-term patients, but with only with a p-value 0.0666.
At least they've stopped claiming it's the first time That did get a bit old after about the 50th time.Why do they choose these ridiculous headlines? Almost all of them do it. Why!?! Do they lack social awareness?
I'd be interested to know if the average values for all combined ME patients (regardless of severity) were similar to the control values for the mild-medium-severe distinguishing cytokines, and if the controls had a similar low-to-high range and distribution as the ME patients. If so, it would suggest that those cytokines weren't relevant to developing the disease, but only to severity.
Dr Alan Carson, Reader in Neuropsychiatry, University of Edinburgh, said:
“Researchers from Stanford University have reported a link between CFS and a number of immune-system cytokines, whose concentrations in the blood correlated with the disease’s severity. The laboratory aspects of the study are well conducted and emerging laboratory techniques have allowed this study to be conducted with greater precision than previous reports.
“What is less clear is who the patients were and the description of how they came to be recruited, their diagnostic work up and concomitant medication use is much less persuasive. That said it I wouldn’t doubt the main findings that there are alterations in cytokine response in the condition and that elevated TGF-β in particular is elevated. There have been reports on this for the previous 2 decades and a meta analysis of 38 papers in 2015 demonstrated it as a consistent finding (Blundell et al 2015).
“As that 2015 paper commented, what is less clear is what that means – one of the signature features of ME/CFS is post exertional malaise; patients feel awful after activity. The previous studies of TGF-β showed its levels did not correlate with this core phenomenon, which begs the question of what the inflammatory role actually is.
“This study therefore confirms what was already known but doesn’t take the field forward. In particular as it was cross sectional in nature we don’t know whether the findings were the cause or the effect of living with ME/CFS or indeed the result of a confounding factor – e.g. antidepressant medication may cause increases in TGF-β and sleep disturbance has an effect on cytokines.
“It is highly unlikely, contrary to the researchers claim, that this will lead to a blood test any time soon – not least on the grounds it has been well known for some time but the elusive test is no closer.
“One area that does deserve some criticism is in the associated press release rather than the paper itself. It quotes Montoya, who oversees the Stanford ME/CFS Initiative, as saying:
“I have seen the horrors of this disease, multiplied by hundreds of patients,” he said. “It’s been observed and talked about for 35 years now, sometimes with the onus of being described as a psychological condition. But chronic fatigue syndrome is by no means a figment of the imagination. This is real.”
“Although perhaps not his purpose the comments suggest that patients with psychiatric or psychological conditions have imaginary conditions and patients with inflammatory disease are somehow more worthy and have ‘real’ illness. In fact the understanding and acknowledgement of altered immune system cytokine response in depression is far more elucidated; and known to be associated with disease development rather than a response to the condition. This perhaps reflects a general problem within ME/CFS research and its associated politics that too often it is played out against a 19th century view of the brain and its function rather than a modern integrative neuroscience perspective.”
New "expert" reaction from the SMC. Alan Carson (well known for his work on "functional neurological disorders"):
“Although perhaps not his purpose the comments suggest that patients with psychiatric or psychological conditions have imaginary conditions and patients with inflammatory disease are somehow more worthy and have ‘real’ illness. In fact the understanding and acknowledgement of altered immune system cytokine response in depression is far more elucidated; and known to be associated with disease development rather than a response to the condition. This perhaps reflects a general problem within ME/CFS research and its associated politics that too often it is played out against a 19th century view of the brain and its function rather than a modern integrative neuroscience perspective
This "expert" reaction caused an almost imperceptible raise of my weary eyebrow. Is any of this guff getting into the press any more? Prof. Macleod's statement got one sentence at the end of the Times article, almost an afterthought. Prof Cleare was ignored by the Telegraph. Any other newspapers even bothering with what the SMC has to say today?New "expert" reaction from the SMC. Alan Carson (well known for his work on "functional neurological disorders"):
Or possibly on a subsequent day, if you carry on the activity? I think I used to be able to do this.If you can run without crashing the next day, you don't have CFS/ME.
Science Media Centre disagrees. No surprise here.
the study provides no evidence that inflammation actually causes CFS/ME.
It's made Hacker News!
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14896255
The SMC comment has a point, namely these endless cytokine studies which don't attempt to find out why they are raised, don't move the field forward very much.
These are generic studies conducted by people who lack imagination. Doing the easy study, rather than choosing the tricky path - testing highly specific hypotheses.
Generally I would have some sympathy with this view and that a dualistic view of medicine is unhelpful except that the fear avoidance model explicitly views symptoms as imagined.
This is a/ mostly correct and b/ mostly irrelevant. They do not claim to have proven a cause.
This doesn't sound like ME/CFS, btw. You might be barking up the wrong tree. In any case, I think it is best to keep individual cases out of this thread and just focus on the research. If not, the research threads are quickly drowned in test results, regimens and speculation.
If you can run without crashing the next day, you don't have CFS/ME.
Sorry to have to be a naysayer but I do think biological studies should be subjected to the same careful scrutiny we subject psychosocial research to. Sadly, I have to agree with the SMC stooges in this instance (although their gleeful negativity is to be condemned).
The authors put out a press release full of rather puzzling, one could say hyperbolic, claims. I guess I'm just not smart enough to interpret their results because I can't fathom why they're saying the things they're saying to the media.
The news articles have quotes claiming that this study shows that ME/CFS is an inflammatory disease, that the symptoms are driven by cytokines and that this could become a diagnostic test. Montoya is also quoted as implying that psychological illnesses are made up which is incorrect (and very unhelpful from a public relations perspective). Ironically, inflammatory findings are much stronger in major depression and schizophrenia than they are in ME/CFS currently, and the reason for that is that those diseases have much more funding and many more researchers working on them.
If you look at the cytokine figure posted by @Simon on page 1, it provides very strong evidence that cytokine levels have nothing to do with symptoms given the strange cytokine-severity relationship where mild patients have lower cytokines than healthy controls, moderate patients have about the same levels as controls and severe patients have higher levels than controls but not really significantly so.
Not only that, but they also failed to replicate the previous massively hyped cytokine study by Hornig et al. so not only does this study add nothing new to our understanding of aetiology of ME/CFS (let alone a diagnostic test), it also refutes previous claims of short vs long-term ME/CFS cytokine 'subsets'.
The only thing of interest here, to my mind, is the TGF-beta finding which confirms what many other studies have previously shown.
Sorry for my ignorance,are these pro inflamatory cytokines elevated in depression aswell?..i tought depression doesn't involve immune system that much.