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CROI (Retrovirology and Opportunistic Infections, Boston) on XMRV and CFS

Discussion in 'XMRV Research and Replication Studies' started by Ecoclimber, Feb 28, 2011.

  1. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    I agree with you here. Defintely sounds like there will be "spin" put on at the CROI conference. Pretty clear there are many spin doctors around.

    Also clear the anti-spin doctors who are battling to get the truth out about XMRV, are being shut out of the CROI.
  2. eric_s

    eric_s Senior Member

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    Switzerland/Spain (Valencia)
  3. Ernie

    Ernie Senior Member

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    Of course he chooses not to answer. For all we know he's just trying to keep people from protesting at the door.
  4. acer2000

    acer2000 Senior Member

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    I'd like to know this as well. And also, how can anyone be certain, that even if it is in some cell lines, that it doesn't also infect humans and cause disease? The two aren't mutually exclusive...
  5. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    I agree that they're not mutually exclusive at all. Researchers, after all, are very careful with some viruses to ensure they don't have the opportunity to jump to humans in their labs. I don't think it matters where XMRV came from.....The fact that it might have come from a cell line means nothing I don't think. A virus is a virus. It could jump from a mouse to a human or be a lab escape (ie a cell line) to a human - it doesn't matter which.

    The question raised by the Hue paper is why, if XMRV has infected humans, it is still so similar to the XMRV found in the cell line. Once it was exposed to more human cells the thought is that it should have undergone a bunch of small changes. The fact that those samples didn't made Hue think XMRV never actually infected human cells but simply got in human blood samples. This is what John Coffin called a "subtle and indirect" argument. It's suggestive of something but certainly not definitive.
  6. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    This is an interesting location to hold this talk because the Univ. of Alberta reported in early summer of last year they were collaborating with the WPI to look for XMRV in CFS patients. They anticipated they would be done in a couple of months - and that was the last time we heard of them. Now Dr. Mikovits is talking on how to find XMRV there. It's interesting? ..what does it mean, I wonder? It certainly sounds positive.
  7. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Here's my take on the presenters from the Buzz page

  8. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

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    Folk also need ot remember the incredibly nasty spat between the American and French researchers who discovered HIV, and how long it took to find it, all the bruhaha etc

    Lot of folk (rather, huge powerufl groups and major "people") have serious vested interests to prove XMRV does not exist, some because they'll face criminal charges, many because they simply missed something huge right under their noses and it's an ego issue.
    Plus you never EVER get consesus in science until many years have gone by or osme huge event has made it a "slam dunk".

    And this virus if it's evaded and screwed over the Human immune system, which is the product of billions of years of evolution, and has been missed completely up until lasy few years, is not likely to be bloody easy to find! For example, see Lyme Disease, it both hides in an "out of the way palce" (brain/nervous system), it also has an incredbily screwy low reproduction rate making it extremely hard to detect.

    And expecting this virus to behave exactly like others...while logcial, is also not good behaviour...things have a habit of doing the upredictable and being the ones who bite you in the ass when you've been complacent ;)
  9. Ecoclimber

    Ecoclimber Senior Member

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    Xenotropic Murine Leukemia Virus-Related Virus (XMRV) Probably Originated Through Recombination Between Two Endogenous Murine Retroviruses During in vivo Passage of a Human Prostate Cancer Xenograft

    T Paprotka 1 , K Delviks-Frankenberry 1 , O Cingz 2 , A Martinez 3 , H-J Kung 3 , C Tepper 3 , W-S Hu 1 , J Coffin 2 , and Vinay Pathak* 1

    1 National Cancer Institute-Frederick, Frederick, MD, US; 2 Tufts University School of Medicine, MA, US; and 3 University of California at Davis, Sacramento, CA, US

    Background: XMRV has recently been associated with human prostate cancer (PC) and chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS). However, other studies have failed to detect XMRV in PC and CFS patients. A human PC cell line, 22R v1 , produces XMRV that is virtually identical to virus isolated from PC and CFS patients. The 22R v1 and CWR-R1 cell lines were derived from a human PC xenograft, CWR22, which was serially passaged in nude mice. To evaluate the genetic variation and evolutionary potential of XMRV, nucleic acid extracts of early and later passages of the CWR22 xenografts and CWR-R1 were analyzed.

    Methods: DNAs isolated from early (3rd and 7th) and later passage CWR22 xenografts consisted of a mixture of tumor DNA and nude mouse DNA. Short tandem repeat analysis was used to confirm that the tumor DNAs were derived from the same person as the 22R v1 and CWR-R1 cell lines. XMRV-specific PCR primers and qPCR assays were developed and used for the analysis of xenograft and nude mouse nucleic acids.

    Results: PCR assays showed that both cell lines and later passage xenografts contained XMRV but the early passage xenografts did not, indicating that XMRV was not present in either the original CWR22 tumor or associated nude mouse tissue, but became prevalent in later passage xenografts.

    We explored the origin of XMRV by analyzing xenograft-associated nude mouse DNAs and DNAs from other nude mouse strains; the data revealed the presence of two previously undescribed endogenous proviruses, PreXMRV-1 and PreXMRV-2, which contained >3.2-kb stretches of their genomes with ~ 99.92% identity to XMRV. Retroviral recombination between PreXMRV-1 and PreXMRV-2 involving a few template switching events can generate a replication-competent virus that differs from XMRV by only 5 nucleotides (99.94% identity). Analysis of 15 nude mouse strains indicated that none contained XMRV, but some strains potentially used to passage the xenograft contained both PreXMRV-1 and PreXMRV-2.

    Conclusions: We conclude that XMRV was not present in the original CWR22 prostate tumor but was generated by recombination between PreXMRV-1 and PreXMRV-2 during in vivo passages of the CWR22 xenograft. The probability of an identical recombinant arising multiple times is vanishingly small, raising the possibility that contamination of human samples with XMRV originating from the 22R v1 cell line is responsible for its reported association with PC and CFS.

    (T. P., K. A. D.-F., and O. C. contributed equally.)

    --------------
    In this abstract the authors show that XMRV was not in the original passages of prostate cancer cells from which the 22Rv1 cell line was derived. Remember, 22Rv1 makes virus that is nearly identical to all "clinical" isolates of XMRV. This result implies that the virus came from the nude mice in which the tumor cells were grown, and not from the original patient. They also find two endogenous mouse viruses with regions that are virtually identical to XMRV, showing that XMRV is a mouse virus, and not some new human virus.

    The other problematic result is in the Garson et al. paper published in Retrovirology:

    "Analysis of XMRV integration sites from human prostate cancer tissues suggests PCR contamination rather than genuine human infection"
  10. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    I hope someone will kind enough to relate these findings with all the positive xmrv blood test from WPI, RedLabs, Alter and Lo paper along with antibody production. I feel like I'm on both the East Coast and West Coast at the same time! But, I'm really standing in Oklahoma with a blindfold on???? Help me! Help me!!!

    Thanks ahead of time!
  11. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    Hi I've posted this elsewhere but I want to remind people that Lo and Alter found an association between MLVs and CFS, sequenced all their findings and found that some viruses had changed over time. At the time their research was derided because they did not find XMRV. Now this becomes a strength because the research presented here cannot apply to the Lo paper. This conference is focused on XMRV only. Alter has defended his findings - and nothing in this conference which is so specifically attacking XMRV can be applied to the Alter/Lo paper.
    I thought that there was now a wide range of MLVs being found in CFS patients, including Mink focus forming virus - another mouse virus. (If I've remembered it correctly)
    Specifically attacking XMRV will not be enough as other murine viruses are now associated with CFS/ME and it will be necessary to assess the significance of all of them.
  12. JohnnyD

    JohnnyD Senior Member

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    ah, the great american way... threaten legal action. What total bullshit.
  13. JohnnyD

    JohnnyD Senior Member

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    And if you were on my forum threatening legal action -- I'd boot you off immediately.
  14. Doogle

    Doogle Senior Member

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    Ecoclimber,

    If you are addressing persons on the ME/CFS Forum, I fail to see how posting on PR is more effective than posting on the ME/CFS Forum.

    Since you did post in this forum, in the interests of full disclosure, would you please be specific as to in what capacity you represent which researchers and institutions?

    Thanks.
  15. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

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    ah huh....:rolleyes:
    you know that Satan has banned lawyers from Hell?
    They were filling the place up and making him look bad, he said in a recent interview :D
  16. Ecoclimber

    Ecoclimber Senior Member

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    JohnnyD I'm not on your forum but to accuse someone of fabrication, or discredit their motives without any proof is illegal. Just as if someone accuses or writes about another person falsely engaging in illegal activities with doctored material to destroy their reputation, their job etc. Can't do it. This message was not meant for this forum but for the other forum. There comments go back a long way and was tolerated in the past but no more. Neither I or others in the past derided or attacked others members to such a libelous degree as those on the other forum. Unfortunately, since the internet is in the public sphere and are lasting, these comments will no longer be tolerated.

    For the ME/CFS Forum:
    My information came originally from Dr. Silverman. Instead of calling me all sorts of names on the other forum, they should be calling Dr. Silverman to check if the statements are true or not. Like I said they have been put on notice and any others can quickly be added to the list who wish to deride my ability to protect my sources, researchers and institutions.

    If Cort feels this is inappropriate, then he certainly can remove the thread.
  17. Grape Funk

    Grape Funk Senior Member

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    This is your chance to speak up Ecoclimber

    1. Who are you? And who is it you represent specifically? And what are you associations to the persons addressed?
    2. Please indicate how you can "defame" someone without plausible identification of oneself.
    3. Why so defensive in what you post, when we all have the ability to critically think for ourselves on validity and issues surrounding novel research?
    4. Why even come to a me/cfs forum to post info when we will receive it in due time anyway from our own research?
  18. Grape Funk

    Grape Funk Senior Member

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    And please stop with the exclamation points.
  19. Ecoclimber

    Ecoclimber Senior Member

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    I am banned from that forum but I notice that everything that has been posted to date in this thread has been copied over to the other forum.
  20. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    This forum (aboutmecfs.org) is moderated and any illegal postings or postings breaking forum rules are removed. I don't see the point in reposting here about what is going on in forums that are poorly moderated, or malicious in their focus. But that topic has come up here recently so it is relevant.

    For people taking this casually, this is not a casual issue. It is indeed illegal to make serious accusations online that are unfounded, or without all the supporting evidence. That can be considered defamation of character or libel, and laws have protected against that for a long, long time, and are now, appropriately being used in online interactions. Just google 'online defamation'... Here is a good eHow page on that: http://www.ehow.com/how_2040829_learn-online-defamation-act.html

    If you make online accusations that a person is breaking laws or being dishonest or disreputable, you better have strong evidence to back up the accusations, enough to win a lawsuit, because that is what you may face in today's environment. I think the safest approach is simply to stay away from speculating about other people's motives, and stick with facts and opinions.

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