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Creepy posts by James Coyne to Jeanette Burmeister

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
This is an argument about whether or not we should be having an argument.
I agree. The main issue might be boiled down to this: should we, as a community, engage or disengage with people who we disagree with, or who uses tactics or behavior we disagree with?

In my view, communicating is always better than not communicating. There is a reason why we still communicate with the North Korean regime, for example. It is not because we agree with how they behave or treat people, but because communication is a way of getting insight and influence. All history points to the fact that when people are isolated, or marginalized, they become even more radical.
 

Dx Revision Watch

Suzy Chapman Owner of Dx Revision Watch
Messages
3,061
Location
UK
...But remember that two wrongs don't make a right - if you make allegations on public platforms or incite people to ostracise or attack him then you are as bad and as hypocritical as he is.

1. Where have I incited people to ostracize him?
2. Where have I incited people to attack him?
 

Dx Revision Watch

Suzy Chapman Owner of Dx Revision Watch
Messages
3,061
Location
UK
Okay. So he behaved very badly six months ago, he was roundly chastised by the community for his behaviour and there's no evidence that he's repeated it since. So tell me - why are we having this conversation half a year later?



Just to be clear - you're attacking him here for nothing more than blocking people he disagrees with on twitter and moderating blog posts.

You omitted his inciting others to also block and shun.
 

Stewart

Senior Member
Messages
291
You omitted his inciting others to also block and shun.

As adreno said up-thread, he gets to choose how he uses social media. He can tell his followers who he's blocking and encourage them to do the same if they wish. He doesn't have any obligation to promote the views of other activists - particularly those activists he disagrees with - and I don't think that declining to promote contrary voices can reasonably be described as 'silencing' them.

You wrote:

"But remember that two wrongs don't make a right - if you make allegations on public platforms or incite people to ostracise or attack him then you are as bad and as hypocritical as he is."

I don't think that was aimed at you. If you read the full thread you'll see that other contributors have called for Coyne to be completely ostracized (although it isn't clear what this would look like in practice) and have alleged that he is continuing in his abuse of pwME (no evidence of this has been presented so this seems to be hearsay).
 

Mrs Sowester

Senior Member
Messages
1,055
But not directly to you personally Dx Revision Watch, it was a general point in response to the posts that had been made since I last dipped a toe in this thread.
People have been advocating ostracising him and inciting others to do the same. People have been very upset that others won't agree to do the proposed ostracism and incitement to ostracism - my opinion was directed at them. I apologise for the misunderstanding.
 

barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
image.jpeg
 

JayS

Senior Member
Messages
195
This is not verbal abuse. It is troll-like sarcasm. Is this it lately or is there more?

It's not verbal abuse why, because you say so? Wow. Real nice post you have there. I trust you're proud.

Oh, sure, you'd have a point if that was all there was. But this was from the the guy who called her a 'sick, crazy lawyer.' If that doesn't alter the context for you...I really don't have words.

I'm not going to be posting a lot about this. I'm not sure it serves a purpose, really. But I suspect those of you who think people like me have made a big deal out of very little (or nothing) might have reacted very differently if a different ox had been gored.
 

Undisclosed

Senior Member
Messages
10,157
It's not verbal abuse why, because you say so? Wow. Real nice post you have there. I trust you're proud.

Oh, sure, you'd have a point if that was all there was. But this was from the the guy who called her a 'sick, crazy lawyer.' If that doesn't alter the context for you...I really don't have words.

I'm not going to be posting a lot about this. I'm not sure it serves a purpose, really. But I suspect those of you who think people like me have made a big deal out of very little (or nothing) might have reacted very differently if a different ox had been gored.

On a forum one really shouldn't have to preface their comments with "In my opinion ...". So again it is my opinion that particular comment is not verbal abuse. In my opinion it is more a sarcastic trollish comment designed to get a rise out of people. Which it totally did. Rather than lashing out once again, why not accept that my opinion differs from yours. This is the problem, if one doesn't totally condemn Coyne, then one's opinion is wrong. I condemn his behaviour towards the advocates he has abused. I am not going to start ignoring somebody on the basis of being told to.

Context? I have never condoned any of the comments made by Coyne to Jeannette. The 'sick crazy lawyer' was extremely offensive and abusive. I just don't think that the comment that restarted the campaign against Coyne was 'verbal abuse'.
 

Stewart

Senior Member
Messages
291
This is not verbal abuse. It is troll-like sarcasm. Is this it lately or is there more?
It's not verbal abuse why, because you say so? Wow. Real nice post you have there. I trust you're proud.

JayS - you haven't actually addressed the question Kina asked you - namely is this it for recent 'inappropriate' behaviour by Coyne. You've gone back to criticising his actions last February. Which is what *every* *single* *person* criticizing Coyne has done when asked to provide evidence backing up the claim that his 'chilling' ongoing campaign of terror is continuing to 'silence' advocates.

After 12 pages of this debate, here's where I've ended up:

  • Coyne behaved badly 6 months ago.
  • He was widely condemned for it at the time.
  • He hasn't repeated this behaviour since (touch wood).
  • Blocking people on twitter, moderating blog comments and generally being a bit of dick on social media (which he regularly is) do not constitute harassment or abuse, no matter how much some people might think they do.
  • Some people still hate Coyne with a passion for his actions back in February, which I understand.
  • Some of those people think that the rest of us should continue to loath Coyne just as much as they do, and are frustrated that we don't.
  • Not sharing their intense dislike for the man does not mean that we are 'trivialising' his actions, or that we have a negative opinion of Jeannette, and it is more than a little bit manipulative of those people to suggest that we do.
  • Coyne's dickish comments on Jeannette's blog - while dickish - are not in any way comparable to his actions and words back in February.
  • The people who hate Coyne suggest that these comment are part of an ongoing campaign to 'silence key ME advocates'.
  • Nobody seems to be able to provide any real evidence to back these claims up.
  • If evidence actually existed someone would have made it public, as this would greatly assist their efforts to get us all to hate Coyne.
  • There isn't any evidence because the claims that Coyne is continuing to harass advocates aren't true. People are actually just still pissed off about what he did 6 months ago. Which, as I've already said, I can understand. But that doesn't mean that I think it's acceptable for those people to make unproven allegations, or to exaggerate the nature and scale of what he did 6 months ago to make him seem much worse than he is.
I honestly still don't understand why Jeannette thinks this is the best use of her time and energy given all the other exciting developments of recent weeks - but that's her decision to make. Personally I don't agree with most of the claims she made in her series of tweets:
  • I don't think Coyne has successfully erased all record of his behaviour,
  • I don't think many people turned a blind eye or 'immediately urged the community to move on',
  • I think people have been far less inclined to engage with Coyne since his outburst and many individuals and groups have shunned him and continue to do so,
  • I haven't come across any 'revisionists' providing 'cover' or 'credibility' for Coyne,
  • I haven't seen anybody downplay his behaviour or 'liken' Jeannette's tweet to Collins to Coyne's outburst (lots of people were critical of her tweet, but I can't remember anyone saying it was as bad as Coyne's behaviour)
  • I haven't seen anyone claim that Coyne's dyslexia is an excuse for his behaviour
  • I don't think Coyne has managed to 'stifle' criticism of the federal government, and consequently I don't understand where she's getting the idea that 'self-censorship is now a thing'
  • I don't think that it's appropriate to bring up a 20 year old domestic violence case which has nothing to do with his recent behaviour
...so I can't accept the central argument she set out in her blog. From my perspective she emerged from Coyne's outburst with her reputation enhanced - even the people who didn't like her tweet to Collins took her side and praised her previous advocacy - while Coyne emerged with his reputation diminished, no longer able to get a hearing for the point he was trying to make. I genuinely don't understand how she can have reached the conclusion that the reverse happened - that Coyne was strengthened and her standing and that of other advocates was diminished - but there we go. If I was privy to everything that's happened in her life over the last six months I might feel differently. But I'm not, so I don't.

Consequently at this time I'm not interested in joining what seems to me to be an ill-considered witch-hunt against James Coyne - especially when no-one seems to have a clear idea of what form this campaign would take or what it hopes to achieve. If he starts abusing advocates again - swearing, trashing people's reputations - let me know and I'll be happy to dust off my pitchfork. But until then in my opinion there seem to be a lot more important issues we could and should be focusing on.

This turned out to be a *lot* longer than I intended. Sorry about that. Ive got nothing more to say so I'm ducking out of this thread now. Thanks for the conversation everybody, and my apologies if I've offended anyone - I can see that people feel strongly about this and I hope nobody feels I've belittled their concerns by disagreeing with them.
 
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Nielk

Senior Member
Messages
6,970
Jeannette wrote in her blog post that she was writing it in response to members of the community's questions about her absence from ME advocacy.

She brought the following tweet as an example:
tweet_chapman.jpg



In reply to these inquiries, Jeannette wrote a series of tweets and posted them on her blog post.

In her tweets, Jeannette acknowledged that Coyne’s abuse and the reaction from those who supported him have “decimated the little health I had”.

Much of the abusive posts by Coyne and those who piggybacked on him have been sanitized – as Jeannette posted. But, here is a screenshot of a post by Cort Johnson which has since been ‘erased”.

upload_2016-9-22_14-54-24.png




I know that this is hard to read but, it basically bashes Jeannette. This was just the start of a long thread where others joined in – in the bashing Jeannette and a specific group of advocates.

This is just one small example of what has been going on. Coyne started on a course of abuse and others have continued. Since many key voices in the ME community did not come out to publically deride these actions nor to demand a public apology from Coyne, it set the stage for others to continue this type of character assassinations of ME advocates who take a strong stand against the malfeasance of the government health agencies.

I have personally experienced this and I have witnessed this with other advocates as well. I have personally seen abusive and derogatory messages from Coyne to ME advocates who have tried to engage him in order to make peace. Like this one -

CfxWAthW4AASIpi.jpg:large


I have written the following in my comment on Jeannette’s blog post –

“This is all about the perversion of power in order to intimidate and silence a group of activists.

Coyne has a history within and outside of the ME community for being an abusive narcissist. He entered the ME community as an “authority” figure – an academic who will champion for this community that has been continually abused for decades.

Instead, it turns out that Coyne himself is the abuser. But, make no mistake about it, this is not random abuse. Coyne, very carefully and without any provocation, decided to pick on one of the most vocal advocates who used her excellent skills as an attorney to repeatedly and successfully hold the government health agencies accountable for their 30 years of malfeasance and neglect of millions of ME patients. She singlehandedly sued HHS and NIH in court for their violations of FOIA laws and not only won the case but the judge reprimanded HHS and NIH for their misbehavior in the way they conducted themselves.

Coyne did not just pick on Jeannette. He also bullied other exceptional advocates like Suzy Chapman and Angela Kennedy who have done invaluable work on PACE and other crucial matters for many years. These advocates, some of which are patients – other carers of patients – have been brave, loyal and successful ME advocates who were not afraid to call the government out for their gross misconduct.

Coyne’s pick of advocates to abuse is telling and it points to a classic method of intimidation of a group in order to silence that specific voice. This method was honed by Ron Duchin, a research analyst at Mongoven, Biscoe & Duchin Inc. who devised and used specific methods to break up activists’ groups who were fighting for social justice. The famous case being the fight against activists fighting the tobacco industry.

Duchin’s methods included the use of character assassination to discredit the most vocal activists with the use of exaggerations, lies, trumped up charges in order to marginalize them. This initial method was crucial because with the marginalization of the most vocal and effective activists, the setting was then ripe to engage the others with the aim of getting them to work and comply with the system (make an example of a few – and the others will be intimidated and will fall in line).

What I find very sad is that members of the ME community have enabled Coyne and even jumped on the bandwagon with him – as if a floodgate had just opened to excuse the behavior of ‘abusing ME advocates’. This has been a very sad time in the history of ME advocacy. The Coyne et al abuse has been either swept under the rug or much worse – condoned and replicated – without much resistance from the community.

Shockingly, some in the community still champion this victimizer. They still regard his opinion and appeal for his input!

The silence by many in the ME community and the cooperation by some have enabled this perversion of power to continue and the intimidation and silencing of a group of ME activists.”

Jeannette announced her formal retirement from ME advocacy yesterday. Other advocates have done the same – some are still deciding. Many feel demoralized.

I wonder how far Act Up HIV/AIDS advocacy would have gotten if their most vocal advocates would have been abused, debased and hung out to dry from within - the way it is happening here.
 

Nielk

Senior Member
Messages
6,970
I got to the top of this page and exactly the same thing came to my mind too. I even went and found a picture to post similar to yours, scrolled down and saw you'd beaten me to it. This situation has become ridiculous.

It is the mockery of other people's pain that is ridiculous.
 

snowathlete

Senior Member
Messages
5,374
Location
UK
No Nielk, no one is mocking people's pain. It's about the overreaction and inappropriate reaction, to the issue.

Someone did something inappropriate. He won't say sorry as he should, and most of the community moved on because the alternative is an endless feud that will get worse, not better, and people have enough problems in their lives already. Some people have chosen to pursue the feud, which is fine, but now they want to draw others into it and criticize others for not wanting that. We've got 240+ posts on this in a few days on here, loads of it on social media and elsewhere. I think it has become ridiculous. I am not the only one. One question people in this feud have to ask themselves is, maybe the others have it right and this isn't worth it. It's not an issue of who is right or wrong, it's about whether this makes any sense any more.
 
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