Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
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Creating pathogen-targeted chick egg yoke antibodies to cure ME/CFS

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by CaptainA, May 30, 2016.

  1. CaptainA

    CaptainA

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    So I'm just as skeptical as most people with ME/CFS are about new and wonderful treatments but this has me intrigued for a couple reasons. The following is a blog post apparently written by the daughter of an elderly women whom, with the help of some biologists created antibodies to treat her ME/CFS by injecting her own blood into chickens and then eating the raw yoke. This sounds like quite the treatment and at first it sounded very far fetched to me, but now after some digging it seems that this may have some validity to it.

    I'm interested in what others think. Here is the article google translated, semi badly at the end I might add.
     
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  2. CaptainA

    CaptainA

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    @Hip I'm interested on your take on this blog post if you wouldn't mind.
     
  3. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

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    One would expect the antibodies in the egg to be destroyed by digestion. Doesn't sound credible to me, but then again, I'm not an expert.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2016
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  4. CaptainA

    CaptainA

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    Good point. I did find that although not common, you can ingest antibodies. In fact this study tries to make the case that it might actually be a better and safer way of administration.

    A particularly interesting section of the report to me:

    "It is interesting to note that antibodies and other beneficial biologicals such as cytokine cocktails have been delivered in mother's milk for eons and have evolved to survive the harsh gut environment, ensuring their arrival to the mucosal lining of the gastrointestinal tract. These naturally occurring biologicals afford protection against a number of gastrointestinal pathogens, including rotavirus, E coli, shigella, Crytosporidium, C difficile, and H pylori, among others. They also protect us against a number of inflammatory bowel conditions, including ulcerative colitis, Crohn's disease, non‐steroidal anti‐inflammatory drug induced gut injury, and chemotherapy induced mucositis."
     
  5. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

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    That paper isn't a study. It's their musings about a hypothesis.

    Their support for their hypothesis is cited as being http://www.nature.com.sci-hub.cc/nm/journal/v12/n6/full/nm1408.html. This is a study in mice, which do have a similar immune system compared to humans, but a very different digestive system.

    They were investigating the experimental model of a disease, not the diseases itself. Their measurement of a lack of side effects was the scientists belief that the orally administered mice didn't look as wasted and scruffy.

    There also seems to be very basic info missing, such as how many mice were used. Their abstract is misleading to the point of fraud, making no mention that the study was not conducted on humans, nor that the autoimmune condition being treated was an induced model.

    It's not a basis for drawing any conclusions at all.
     
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  6. CaptainA

    CaptainA

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    @Valentijn good point. This paper doesn't seem to be backed up at all by any real research. I'm still interested to see if there is any research backing the original story. It does seem far fetched but at the same time genuine. I'de like to see some type of data.
     
  7. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I must say, irrespective of whether this idea works in general (and I have no reason to doubt that it did work for the patient in question), I am highly impressed with the creative lateral thinking that has gone into this treatment. There should be an award for such inspired ideas! A great find, @CaptainA!



    What I like is the simplicity and accessibility of this treatment: it does not require some complex laboratory setup producing recombinant proteins; it just requires a chicken and a hypodermic needle!

    Even for those with suburban gardens, it may be feasible to keep a chicken at the bottom of the garden in a shed, or in a small chicken run, which will lays eggs. Alternatively, if you know someone who already keeps chickens in their garden (I know a friend of a friend whose does), they might agree to allowing you to use one of their chickens for such an experiment.

    It only requires one drop of human blood from the ME/CFS patient to be injected into the chest muscle of the chicken every two weeks, so this drop of blood could be easily obtained using a standard finger-prick lancet, then sucked into a hypodermic needle, and injected into the chest muscle of the chicken. So the whole thing is very easy to do, once you have a chicken.



    If I understood the Swedish-English translation correctly, this ME/CFS patient had a bacterial infection with TWAR (Taiwan acute respiratory agent), which is the old name for Chlamydia pneumoniae. Ref: 1

    Chlamydia pneumoniae is an intracellular bacterium, and is a known cause of ME/CFS. Dr John Chia has found that 9% of his ME/CFS patients have their disease is attributable to Chlamydia pneumoniae.

    I am wondering whether this chicken egg yoke technique could be used as a treatment for Lyme disease.



    Whether this chicken egg technique would work for viral forms of ME/CFS is unclear. In enterovirus-associated ME/CFS for example, there are already high levels of enterovirus antibodies in the patient's blood, but this does not help the patient much, because in chronic enterovirus infections, the virus lives as an intracellular non-cytolytic infection which antibodies cannot touch.

    And if you look at treatments such as intravenous immunoglobulin (IVIG) therapy for ME/CFS (where extra human antibodies pooled from blood donors are injected into the patient's blood), this has had mixed results, although sometimes it can be pretty effective. Although with IVIG costing $25,000 for a course of treatment, this chicken method is a great deal cheaper!



    Egg yolk appears to contain a different immunoglobulin to the normal human IgG and IgM. Egg yolk contains a high concentration of a type of immunoglobulin called immunoglobulin Y (IgY). Apparently IgY does not bind to cellular Fc receptors, and IgY does not activate the complement system.

    It says here that:


    And it seems that the use of IgY from chicken egg yolk to fight infections has been quite well studied in both humans and animals:

    This study found that IgY isolated from chicken egg yoke and injected into dogs infected with canine parvovirus was able to fight the infection and prevent death.

    This study found intranasally administered IgY from chicken egg yolk reduced influenza B virus replication in mice.

    This study on humans found that a IgY spray was effective in treating bacterial pharyngitis.

    This study on humans found that orally administered IgY from chicken egg yolk was effective in preventing and fighting Pseudomonas aeruginosa infections in patients with cystic fibrosis (this study was longitudinal, using orally administered IgY for up to 10 years on these patients).

    This study on gerbils found IgY isolated from chicken egg yolk was effective in treating Helicobacter pylori infection of the stomach.

    This study found that IgY administered orally and intranasally protected mice against against lethal H5N1 influenza infection. This study also found that after injecting chickens with just two doses of inactivated influenza viruses, the chickens produces high levels of anti-influenza virus IgY in the blood and eggs, which lasted for at least 2 months.

    • In Asian countries, IgY has been clinically tested as a food supplement and preservative. Yogurts containing anti-Helicobacter pylori urease IgY (IgY that targets the enzyme urease made by Helicobacter pylori) have been shown in humans to reduce urea levels (measured by the urea breath test).
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2016
  8. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

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    Wouldn't this work like Transfer factor? OvoFactor transfer factor.
     
  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Transfer factors are found in cow colostrum and chicken egg yolk, but transfer factor itself is not an antibody as such, but rather an immune messenger molecule. It might of course also play a role, but I suspect the main effect comes from the IgY antibodies found in chicken egg yoke.
     
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  10. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    From the blog. My bold.
    If the highlighted method in the quote was used for a diagnosis, measure of improvement, or in any way to give credence this theory then it may be indicative of the level of evidence.

    Pseudoscience.

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2005/jul/12/health.science
     
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  11. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Yes agreed that the live blood analysis is a bit of a pseudoscientific escapade, but the fact that her ME/CFS symptoms improved on antibiotics (before she became allergic to them) does suggest a bacterial infection.

    She also had IgG and IgM antibodies to Chlamydia pneumoniae, although my understanding is that Chlamydia pneumoniae testing is not very accurate.


    The egg yoke IgY treatment did seem to make a major difference to her health, since she was bed-bound with ME/CFS, but in under a year after starting this treatment she was able to take part in a bicycle race.
     
  12. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    In case anyone missed it, the above Swedish article also links to a second article explaining more about how chicken IgY antibodies can be used to treat diseases:

    Antibodies from chickens might cure many diseases

    Here are some excerpts from the article:



    It is also worth looking at the research paper mentioned in the above article, which is this one:

    Avian Antibodies (IgY) to Fight Antibiotic Resistance

    I particularly like the idea mentioned in this paper that egg yoke IgY antibodies could be orally or intranasally administered to humans to help fight against pandemic influenza.

    And the following excerpt from the paper is fascinating:
     
  13. Helen

    Helen Senior Member

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    Quote: " Then you should preferably eat the yolk basically raw because the antibodies are heat sensitive.However, you can boil the eggs up to three minutes so that only the whites have time to clot.Best is also taking a teaspoon of baking soda along with the yolk to extinguish the hydrochloric acid which can also kill the antibodies." (My bolding)

    @matsli , as you were the "publisher" of the stories, do you have any comments that would add to this thread?

    @serg1942, @Sushi, you are the experts and experienced on LDI treatment. Can you see any connection between these treatments?
     
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  14. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    But we don't even know if this story is true or not. That's the problem with ancedotal reports and this is only one anecdote from one reader of a blog. You need a lot of ancedotal reports plus other backup data, before it's even worth considering something like this as possible hypothesis.

    If there is some science behind this that says eggs may be a good way to transfer antibodies, I haven’t seen anything here which would translate into a specific treatment where your blood is injected into the chicken breast and then eating the yolk raw as anything other than an old wives tale.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2016
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  15. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    So what does the scientific method tell you when you are uncertain of the truth? Answer: get more data, do more experiments. If everyone followed this idea of waiting until there is more data, we would never get any more empirical evidence.



    Have you not read the studies I quoted above? The methodology used in these studies involves injecting the target pathogen into the muscles of chickens, in order to stimulate the immune system of the chickens to form IgY antibodies that specifically target that pathogen. Those IgY antibodies are conveniently placed in the egg yoke, making it very easy to then administer to the patient.

    For example, in this study they used this methodology:
    This study says:
    This study says:


    Since pathogens circulate in the patient's blood, by injecting a drop of the patient's blood into the muscle of the chicken you are hopefully introducing those pathogens into the chicken.

    There may be some shortcomings of this drop of blood method when it comes to those with enterovirus-associated ME/CFS, because in chronic enterovirus infections, you do not find many viral particles in the blood.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2016
  16. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    What I get from your citations is that these may be viable treatments in a clinical setting under controlled conditions using scientfic data collecting, citations, etc. etc. I have no problem with that and appreciate that you provided some scientific backup.


    But the above is a far cry from reporting that someone's mother bought a chicken, keeping it in the backyard, injecting it with her blood and then eating the raw yolks and the only citation is your own blog. That's not the way to lay out a convincing conclusion or say this is why we should believe this theory.

    The first is science while the second is superstition.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2016
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  17. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    You are misunderstanding something here: nobody is suggesting that this N=1 experiment in Sweden is a convincing conclusion; but it is a very interesting starting point, with a reasonable theory behind it, for those ME/CFS patients who like to explore new treatment possibilities. Perhaps you may not be one of those explorer types, but you find other individuals who are.
     
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  18. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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    My only note is, if it would be blood transferable is great but I had a kid and she does not have CFS so far, So you would have to watch the chicken to be tired to be sure the "transfer" of blood did take the cfs then you take the eggs. And so, do you inject chickens until one happens to get cfs. I just don't think would be as easy as just injecting one chicken.

    But the idea is genius.
     
  19. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    I guess you can't deny that it won't catch your attention!
     
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  20. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    @lnester7
    The chicken does not have to develop ME/CFS for this to work. Providing you transfer the pathogen or pathogens underpinning your ME/CFS to the muscle of the chicken, the chicken should develop IgY antibodies to it, especially if you repeat the process of injecting a drop of your blood every 14 days for several months, as this lady in Sweden did before she started eating the raw chicken egg yoke.

    Alternatively (or in addition), for those patients like myself who have a chronic sore throat lasting many years, caused by the virus that triggered their ME/CFS, the saliva may contain viral particles. I know that that even 18 months after catching my virus, I was infecting other people with it by ordinary social contact, presumably via saliva. So saliva may be another route to infecting the chicken with your ME/CFS virus.

    It may be enough to put some of your spittle on the chicken's food every day, and they may then catch the viral infection that way. Enteroviruses are very cosmopolitan viruses, and can infect a number of species, so hopefully can infect chickens. This study indicates that chickens carry a diverse range of picornavirus infections (enterovirus is in the picornavirus family).
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2016
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