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Crash 2 (What is causing my crashes?)

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Johnmac, Oct 7, 2014.

  1. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    After my recent crash - which some kind folk here like @sregan @whodathunkit @Critterina @caledonia and @Alea Ishikawa helped me through - I'm now in a second one, 7-10 days later. 70% of symptoms are the same:
    • Can't be bothered with anything - nothing's worth doing
    • Anhedonia (nothing brings pleasure)
    • Uncomfortable in my own body - don't want to be here
    • Can't concentrate on work
    • Suddenly sleeping a lot
    • All-day headache
    • Very bad-tempered
    Basically, after Crash 1, I re-started the Freddd Protocol with much-reduced folate doses, as the consensus was that I was sensitive to folate & needed relatively lots of B12. (See my doses & my SNPs below.) I had a good, high-functioning week. I went to bed last night feeling good.

    But woke this morning in a "crashed" state. Candidate causes that I can think of:

    * Paradoxical folate deficiency after all. (But of all Freddd's 41 paradoxical folate deficiency symptoms, I have only 4: "less sociable", "impaired planning and logic", "low energy", "increased irritability". And none of the body ones like diarrhea & chelitis.)

    * The 10mg of AdbCbl I left behind my lip overnight. I've done that before, and a couple of times it's given me a "tired" day - but nothing as wretched as this.

    * Have I increased mB12 dosages too fast again? They went from 2 to 3mg/day just before the crash.

    * Despite the dosage cut, am I still on too much m-folate?


    Any insights welcome - thanks to all.

    John

    Dosages:
    Since Crash 1 I've been on:
    2-3mg mB12
    150mcg m-folate four times a day
    200mcg LCF twice a day
    AdbCbl every couple of days
    Plus lots of 'base' supplements, & potassium chloride 4 times a day
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2014
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    ???:confused:Could you have been exposed to something, eg. food, mold, other toxics? Could it be resuming the methylation supps you've pushed into a detox? A lot of the symptoms sound liverish:meh: If it were me, I'd be prepping a coffee enema.;)
     
  3. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Don't think I've been exposed to any unusual toxins, Ahmo. Diet etc is much the same.

    Well, yeah, I guess I may have re-started the methylation supps a little too enthusiastically. (I am prone to that kind of thing - it's why I have been successful in my work, and have nearly accidentally killed myself several times. (-: )

    I've read your stuff on liver & adrenals, & pricked up my ears a bit. Might give that a shot once the present dust clears.

    Today's clue is that I took ~200mcg LCF this morning (but no other DQs) and within a few hours was sick as a parrot. Spent the day in bed.

    Clue #2 is that this crash isn't as severe as Crash 1. In Crash 1, I was taking 855mcg of LCF daily, and sometimes double that.

    So I'm guessing LCF is playing a role here. Could even be the whole story.
     
  4. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Sounds like you've got it!:thumbsup: Hope you're feeling better really soon.:ill::sleep::)
     
    Johnmac likes this.
  5. Alea Ishikawa

    Alea Ishikawa

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    Glad to hear you might've found the issue! I was considering calling in the big guns like Valentijn and Caledonia.

    If you attempt LCF again, try titrating up from much lower amounts.
     
  6. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Thanks Alea. (And it's good to know who the big guns are.)

    Yep, I am on a tiny pinch of LCF now - maybe 70 mcgs. I'll be very careful about increasing that.
     
  7. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Johnmac, since you crashed again on low dose methylfolate, you might consider giving Freddd's methylfolate increase theory a try. Just sayin'. The point of going low and slow is to avoid crashes, but you didn't avoid a crash. I don't think you can be harmed by an increase, just possibly made a bit more uncomfortable. And if you get too uncomfortable, you can always stop again. As I've said before, radical increase in the face of a crash really helped me. But it was a leap of faith.

    Again, just saying, as food for thought. Not necessarily "urging" you towards that. You have to do whatever you're comfy with, and it's understandable if you're not comfy with that. Your choice. :)

    FWIW, I would not dare use AdCbl at night. Only in the a.m. If I forget it in the a.m., and then don't remember it until after 1p, I skip it that day and catch it the next. Same with LCF. Both can be very stimulating, and have disrupted my sleep patterns in the past (hence my embargo on both after 1p). I can't say if AdCbl interfered with your sleep or the quality of it, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

    Other things could be going on, too. Your adrenals may not be able to handle your increased metabolism yet. Over-exercising caused me to crash hard early on in this journey. I felt like I could do much more than my body could actually tolerate. Over-exercising will still crash me, although I have much more stamina than I used to. But I'm not well yet.

    Not saying you over-exercised, but rather that stress causes crashes if your adrenals aren't functioning up to par. Increasing metabolism when your endocrine system can't handle is basically stress of the same type as over-exercising. Does that make sense?

    You might want to do some research on "adrenal fatigue" if you don't already know anything about it, and try to judge if it might be something that's bothering you.

    Also, a 24-hour saliva cortisol test can be very enlightening as to just how well your adrenals are functioning. IMO that's one of the more reliable tests and can be very helpful in deciding whether or not you need to address adrenal function in your regimen.

    Also, try to keep in minds that before you stabilize there will be lots of bumps. "Bumps" is a relative term, and from what I've read bumps can be different for everyone. You haven't been doing this very long, and AFAICT are still in the very bumpy period.

    After meditating a bit and looking back, my most basic feeling about bumps is that they're good news. They mean progress, not catastrophe. Just my opinion, of course, enhanced by the fact that I'm getting over yet another bump in my own progress, to good effect for me. Three steps forward and two steps back is still a net gain of a step. A journey of 1000 miles can still be completed in that way, however long it may take.

    I think Freddd says bumps mean progress, too, but we all have to internalize things for ourselves. :)

    Anyway, moving beyond the bumps in the most effective manner can be tricky, since there seems to be a lot of variation in what causes the bumps for everyone. If that makes sense.

    Good luck. However you choose to tackle it, I hope you get over it quickly!
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2014
  8. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Hi @whodathunkit I think this crash was caused by LCF. I un-crashed once I stopped LCF.

    That's not to say paradoxical folate deficiency (PFD) isn't happening too - tho I don't have many of the symptoms as listed by Freddd.

    But I fancy I'll have to try a big increase in m-folate at some stage, just to rule out PFD. What are the risks - i.e. if I don't have PFD? Can you overdose on methylfolate?

    I don't have trouble sleeping after taking any of the DQs.

    I've had adrenal fatigue for a few years, and have been on hydrocortisone for 3 years. Starting the DQs gave me quite a lot of energy, and enabled me to drop my HC dose from 20 to 15mg/day. I'm now contemplating 10. Seems Freddd was right that many "hypoadrenal" symptoms are actually low B12 symptoms.

    I don't think I can get the 24-hour saliva cortisol test in Australia without paying lots of money.

    Yep, I'm trying to distinguish between "bumps" (a bit of nausea, weird moods and mental states) and crashes (severely ill - should stop meds & reassess). So far so good.

    But I agree that bumps are useful signposts that progress is happening.

    Thanks for the input!
     
  9. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    When I said "sleep problems" I meant decreased quality of sleep as well a lack of sleep or frequent wakenings. It does sound like thd DQ's affected the quality of your sleep. If you've had adrenal fatigue for the last few years then that's likely your problem. It will probably be a few months *at least* before your adrenals can cope with the increased metabolism brought about by taking these supps. I had quite severe hypoadrenism (extremely flatlined cortisol throughout the day), and I don't expect to be completely well for another year at least. I've been at this since about March of this year.

    I consider crashes to be bumps. I've yet to have a crash that, after it passed, I didn't feel better than before. Might take a couple of weeks, but I always feel quite a bit better. YMMV.

    I don't think there's any danger of OD-ing on methylfolate. The biggest danger would be potassium problems and it sounds like you've got those covered.

    If you increase methylfolate, I think it's just a matter of how bad you're going to feel, how bad your potassium problems are, and how long you can tolerate feeling bad. Or even the anxiety about feeling bad. IMO the anxiety about whether or not feeling bad means something serious is worse for some people than the actual bad feeling symptoms. If that makes sense. Personally, I have always tended to be kind of a "gonzo" personality so jump with both feet (whatever it is). Not everyone is comfortable with that.

    For me, I crashed a few weeks after beginning methylfolate. Like you, I had a nice honeymoon period, and was even beginning to think the crash wouldn't happen to me. When it did, I decided to take the leap of faith and radically increase. I felt worse for a couple of days then magically began to get a lot better per the pattern that Freddd laid out.

    But I realize some people who are sicker than me might get sick longer, or be sicker, and not be able to tolerate it.

    Worth noting is that I'd also had some previous experiences with similar kinds of "healing crises" doing other regimens, so wasn't terribly alarmed when I started feeling bad and then got worse for a couple/few days.

    My rule of thumb is that if I don't start feeling better (even marginally better) or am feeling worse after seven days, then I'll stop what I'm doing. But I usually give it at least that long to see if things "shake out". Marginally better is still better. You don't have to be fully recovered at the end of seven days, just over the worst of the acute symptoms.

    In my experience, things most frequently do "shake out", or begin to shake out, by day 7.

    But again, YMMV. Do what you're most comfortable with.

    HTH. Good luck!

    P.S. I've experienced all the symptoms you listed in your original post at varying times througout this journey, including/esp. the bad-tempered thing. It comes and goes. I just try to hide more when I'm vile-tempered. It always passes. ;)

    P.P.S. I was on 250mg/day or less of LCF for the first four or so months I was taking it. I couldn't tolerate more than that per day. It made me very speedy. Then after one of my minor crashes I was suddenly able to tolerate a whole 500mg. Very quickly after that I bumped up to 1000mg, which is apparently the max effective dose according to what Freddd has read. I've been at 1000mg/day for a couple/few months now. LOVE LCF.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2014
  10. Johnmac

    Johnmac Senior Member

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    Thanks again @whodathunkit

    Glad the crashes are signposts to recovery. I have felt better after my two also, tho I'd like to avoid more, as they were diabolical (and I have a high pain threshhold).

    Yes, the anxiety about feeling bad is definitely something to watch. One can catastrophise.

    I'm not so sick I couldn't try raising m-folate quite a lot. So that might happen on another crash, if there is one.

    Thanks for the LCF info: that's very helpful. I like it too, as it clears my psoriasis. But it gives me diabolical crashes on much more than 70mcg twice a day, at least currently. Hopefully that'll change in time, as it did for you.
     

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