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Coyne - What it takes for Queen Mary to declare a request for scientific data “vexatious”

Keela Too

Sally Burch
Messages
900
Location
N.Ireland
Yes @Gijs that's right. This is not all the data, and perhaps even as you say not the most important data.

However JC asked for the data in this particular paper because of the PLOS data sharing policies. The college replied as a FOI, despite the fact it was requested under the PLOS data sharing agreement.

There are other requests for data release too - and they are under FOI, but they are perhaps more complicated as there was no agreement to data share (or so I believe) as a requirement of publishing. The challenge via FOI is more complicated.

The uniqueness of this paper is that PLOS One has a data sharing obligation attached to the publication agreement. It won't be all the data as @alex3619 has pointed out, but it will at least (hopefully) get the data released from one paper... and if they refuse then hopefully PLOS One will follow through and retract the paper. It's a start....

We wait to see.....
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Useful comment from James Coyne in response to a comment on his FB page:

James Coyne on FB said:
I think everybody involved needs to appreciate the necessity of a orderly, transparent process. While I too am frustrated with how slow this has been, I think that PLOS has necessity of getting the data released by a process that can withstand legal challenge before and after the fact.
 

Countrygirl

Senior Member
Messages
5,476
Location
UK
Not really relevant but this little gem from one of White's talks is a reminder of just how much contempt he has for this patient population.

http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/ME_-_What_do_we_Know_-_October_1999_-_310805.htm

Those who cannot be fit into a scheme of objective bodily illness yet refuse to be placed into and accept the stigma of mental illness remain to paraphrase Bernard Shaw the undeserving sick of our society and our health-service.

Edited: Oops! I clearly have White on the brain. Sorry folks this is his chum Sharpe.
 
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Scarecrow

Revolting Peasant
Messages
1,904
Location
Scotland
Not really relevant but this little gem from one of White's talks is a reminder of just how much contempt he has for this patient population.

http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/ME_-_What_do_we_Know_-_October_1999_-_310805.htm
Those who cannot be fit into a scheme of objective bodily illness yet refuse to be placed into and accept the stigma of mental illness remain to paraphrase Bernard Shaw the undeserving sick of our society and our health-service.
This seems to be Sharpe rather than White, but it reads like a game of seeing how many straw men you can set up and knock down in a single lecture.
Yes, it was Sharpe and it was part of the conclusion to a talk he gave in 1999. FWIW, the quotation does not represent his publicly professed view, rather he is describing 'society's' view.

CONCLUSION
[Undeserving sick slides - only think they are ill]

In Summary, I was asked to talk to you about the illness called Chronic Fatigue Syndrome or Myalgic Encephalomyojiti5, Despite a large amount of research on this condition it remains Controversial and poorly understood, I have however argued that there is now a general acceptance amongst the majority of the clinical and research community that this illness is real but that it is not new and probably not unique.

Rather it overlaps with emerges into a very large group of patients who attend doctors with disabling distressing Symptoms for which conventional medicine finds no pathological explanation.

Our Society has difficulty with these illnesses because of our worldview, our metaphysics if you like. This is dualistic. Thus man was divided into a soul-less mortal machine capable of mechanistic explanation and manipulation. And a body-less soul, immortal, immaterial and properly subject to religious authority.

[Dualism slide]

The consequences are:

First, if a person's illness cannot be objectively seen it is only subjective and mental

If mental it is not real. Furthermore the person is either rational (and morally suspect for choosing to be ill) or irrational and blameless (but mad).

It seems that we have great difficulty thinking in a more holistic bio-psychosocial way about the suffering of a large proportion of the ill people in our society. Our limited dichotomous view is reflected in the bricks and mortar of the NEIS with its division into medicine and Surgery on the one hand and psychiatry and psychology on the other many persons being left in no-mans land in-between.

The history of CFS has its roots clearly in the last century. The issues surrounding it are shared with a number of other poorly understood or 'medically unexplained' illnesses.

Despite the age and size of this problem it seems that we have made little progress in achieving an understanding that permits effective treatment to be offered to and accepted by those affected.

Those who cannot be fit into a scheme of objective bodily illness yet refuse to be placed into and accept the stigma of mental illness remain to paraphrase Bernard Shaw the undeserving sick of our society and our health-service.

However things are changing. Neuroscience is breaking down the barrier between mind and brain. Doctor patient relationships are changing to give more credence to the
patient's subjective experience. The collaborative integrative approach of good CBT provides one model of how we could proceed.

Perhaps we will do better in the next century. I hope so.
 

soti

Senior Member
Messages
109
changing to give more credence to the
patient's subjective experience

:rofl:

Seriously though (wiping away tears of laughter)... I'm getting a glimmer of what the worldview is and why they think they're fighting the good fight against the stigma of mental illness, when actually what's at stake for us is a different fight altogether. And why they maintain what seem like objectively contradictory propositions--that they are taking this disease seriously AND it has a psychosocial basis. This for them is an extremely important thing to say--in fact, it is the main thing they want to say--and for them it is not a contradiction.

But I wonder, have any of them considered, what IF there were someone who really had a disease with an entirely physical cause...doesn't it immediately follow, in this thought experiment, that subjecting this person to their model would be tantamount to gross malpractice? And wouldn't just the risk of this be enough to make one want to investigate whether this could possibly be the case? And, you know, maybe give more credence to the patient's subjective experience--clearly in a different way from how they conceive of it?

Since they don't seem to be considering this thought experiment, I suspect that they don't think a physical disease with symptoms such as ours could possibly exist. It must be a contradiction in terms for them. That is, the symptoms preclude a entirely (or even mostly, or even partly) physical cause (modulo the old "perpetuating factors" canard). I can't see that this belief for them is at all falsifiable; in other words, I can't detect in their position that any possible evidence could cause them to believe the contrary. And therein lies the problem.
 
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soti

Senior Member
Messages
109
Also I just remembered--was it Wessely who said something along the lines of yeah, I'd say ME/CFS is physical if you also say schizophrenia (and one other, but that's the one I remember) is physical? Schizophrenia must actually be a big success for their worldview. Turns out that even researchers who started their careers with a physical model have come round to the conclusion that there is a huge environmental component, albeit with a genetic predisposition. I bet this is what they have in mind for us. And they probably can't figure out why we're so stroppy when the people with schizophrenia aren't.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Not really relevant but this little gem from one of White's talks is a reminder of just how much contempt he has for this patient population.

http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/ME_-_What_do_we_Know_-_October_1999_-_310805.htm
Taking these quotes so badly out of context is not doing the ME community any favors, regardless of who made the statements. Sharpe (or whoever) was clearly stating that as being the belief of others, and was clearly suggesting that such an attitude was a problem.

That quotes page is not reliable. And there's plenty of unpleasant things which these people have actually said that we can use instead. There is absolutely no need to make things up or take them badly out of context.
 
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Messages
36
Interesting that the prompt for Jonathan Edwards to get involved and committed in ME/CFS science was an outrageous, dumb, and simply factually incorrect comment from Jos van der Meer about the Fluge/Mella Rituximab trial. And the prompt for James Coyne to get involved and committed to 'moral equivalent of war' on the PACE trial's anti-scientific practices was offensive comments by Michael Sharpe. And now we see a horde of incredulous scientists, outraged by the extraordinary anti-scientific behaviour they're witnessing from Kings College London as they continue to resist releasing the PACE trial data. Wouldn't it be nice if some of those people became involved and committed to helping out the cause of ME/CFS patients?...

There are quite clearly wider issues in play here, and political issues which go well beyond ME/CFS - and at long last we seem to be connected with those wider battles. The movement towards Open Publication and Open Data has always been contested and resisted by a variety of vested interests - basically everybody with a stake in the status quo. It's a fundamentally disruptive concept for science, but it's an inevitable and necessary progression of the way we do science, and the thing is, there simply aren't any arguments against Open Science that are even slightly convincing.

So the way I see it, the specific wider issues we're currently connecting with are the revolution of open science, open publication, open data...and at the end of the day, the battle for honesty and integrity in science. I do believe that those who seek to defend the PACE authors in their persistent withholding of their data will find themselves on the wrong side of history in that battle.

Friendly advice to any academics seeking to defend The Good Ship PACE (last seen holed below the waterline and leaking like a sieve, somewhere off the coast of Oxford):

View attachment 13976

What were the comments from Van Der Meer to Jonathon Edwards @Mark ?
 

A.B.

Senior Member
Messages
3,780
What were the comments from Van Der Meer to Jonathon Edwards @Mark ?

I think it may have been this one? I wouldn't call it outrageous, just not open to the possibility that CFS might actually be a serious illness. Something about irony and criticism of blinding and outcome measures could also be said. The comment wasn't directed at Edwards but at the 2011 Rituximab trial.

Maybe we're talking about a different comment entirely? Anyway:

To the Editor,

The finding of Fluge et al [1] that B lymphocyte depletion the anti-CD20 monoclonal antibody, Rituximab (RTX) has beneficial effects in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome is astonishing, particularly since they do not present any theoretical justification for using RTX beyond a very small case series. It is not so much the finding that a form of immunotherapy may work, but rather the peculiar late response (between 6 – 10 months). Such a late response has not been seen in other conditions in which RTX works. The authors had not expected this either, as they did not include a clinical response at this late stage in the primary endpoints.

We have a series of comments to this paper. Firstly, an important methodological question with regard to the blinding of the study. It is likely that patients can sense whether they received RTX, either during or after the infusion, did the investigators check for this by querying the patients as to which arm of the study they believed they were in (before unblinding)?

Secondly, we have a series of methodological concerns regards the measurements of fatigue: we feel the fatigue change score is conceptually less valid than a contemporaneous rating. In addition, the psychometric characteristics of the test used are unknown to us.

What also remains unclear is whether the categorical definition of improvement was determined before the analysis; the discussion suggests this was done post hoc, suggesting this needs replication before any reliable interpretation is possible. Whether a physician-rated fatigue score is a relevant measure for a subjective complaint like fatigue is another questionable issue.
Although there seems to be a statistically significant group by time effect on self-rated fatigue change by linear regression modelling, the clinical size of effect seems small; the best change score approaches 4 at 32 weeks, consistent with “slight improvement”.

Further to the immunological aspects of the treatment, the proportion of patients with either a history or a family history positive for autoimmune disease is high. Did this subgroup show a better response to RTX than the others? The list of autoimmune conditions is rather wide and (perplexingly) includes carpal tunnel syndrome. It would be useful to see how these were balanced across groups.

RTX has beneficial effects not just on auto-antibody-mediated disease: in many instances B cell depletion probably acts by interfering with auto-antigen presentation or by decreasing the T helper 17 response [2, 3]. So if the effect of RTX is real, the finding may guide us to understanding the pathophysiology of CFS, however, in all other autoimmune diseases where RTX therapy is effective, the benefit is observed in days to weeks, consistent with the mechanism of action. The authors present no convincing statement as to a biologically plausible mechanism that may be effected by their intervention. The delayed effect observed is not consistent with the effect of RTX in other autoimmune diseases, a delayed response in ITP for example is seen within 8 weeks [6].

Our greatest concern is the statement by the investigators that they want to proceed with an open label follow up study, instead of a larger, blinded and placebo-controlled RCT. Investigators, clinicians and patients should learn from the XMRV demise, in which many patients were allowed to use antiretroviral treatment on the basis of scanty and - as we know now - spurious data [4,5]. The data in the Fluge paper are far from conclusive, and it is much too early to start use of this expensive and potentially harmful drug in patients with CFS, in settings other than that of high quality RCTs. It should be emphasized that the authors have tended to downplay the potential harms , including the uncommon but important risk of progressive multifocal leukencephalopathy, whereas on the side of notional benefit they overestimate the effect size and power of their study.

http://www.plosone.org/annotation/listThread.action?root=6147

Note that Edwards responded to this comment and disagreed with some points made by van der Meer.
 
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Sean

Senior Member
Messages
7,378
Not really relevant but this little gem from one of White's talks is a reminder of just how much contempt he has for this patient population.

http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/ME_-_What_do_we_Know_-_October_1999_-_310805.htm

Edited: Oops! I clearly have White on the brain. Sorry folks this is his chum Sharpe.

An interesting exchange between Sharpe and a patient over that matter.

http://fumblings.com/weblog/archives/2005/02/the_undeserving_1.html
http://fumblings.com/weblog/archives/2005/02/the_undeserving_1.html#comment-72
http://fumblings.com/weblog/archives/2005/11/a_response_to_m.html
 

Chrisb

Senior Member
Messages
1,051

I have spent some time trying to assess this. (Apologies if this is off topic but the matter has been pursued and should not go unanswered.)

It does seem that Sharpe has been let off the hook on this much too easily. It seems dangerous ground to quote Stalin's useful idiot, as it is said Shaw was regarded, without making explicit which side of the fence one is on, or whether one merely sits atop it. If one frequently uses the first person plural pronoun in a paragraph, as Sharpe does, it is not unreasonable for the reader to assume that the writer associates himself with the ideas expressed.

It seems strange that critics are condemned for taking Sharpe's words out of context when no proper context for a paraphrase of a quotation is provided. The man has the vocabulary to make clear his views if he wishes to. It is not clear that the defence would have withstood close scrutiny.

To try and return the thread to its rightful subject I must apologise for my earlier post mentioning the knocking down of straw men. I now realise that this might be regarded as an expression of subliminal violent intent projected onto others and that straw men, wherever they may be, might be offended. I shall try to curb such vexatiousness.
 

Mark

Senior Member
Messages
5,238
Location
Sofa, UK
I think it may have been this one? I wouldn't call it outrageous, just not open to the possibility that CFS might actually be a serious illness. Something about irony and criticism of blinding and outcome measures could also be said. The comment wasn't directed at Edwards but at the 2011 Rituximab trial.

Maybe we're talking about a different comment entirely? Anyway...
Yes, that's the comment I was referring to. A few of the points in the comment are off the mark, misleading, or even hypocritical, I think, but it was this bit that Jonathan has said elsewhere on the forum was the comment that motivated him to get seriously involved in ME/CFS, I think because it's so completely wrong that it becomes apparent that van der Meer doesn't know what he's talking about at all, yet he is happy to make a completely unfounded criticism of the study, suggesting that he's accustomed to getting away with randomly smearing ME/CFS research:

RTX has beneficial effects not just on auto-antibody-mediated disease: in many instances B cell depletion probably acts by interfering with auto-antigen presentation or by decreasing the T helper 17 response [2, 3]. So if the effect of RTX is real, the finding may guide us to understanding the pathophysiology of CFS, however, in all other autoimmune diseases where RTX therapy is effective, the benefit is observed in days to weeks, consistent with the mechanism of action. The authors present no convincing statement as to a biologically plausible mechanism that may be effected by their intervention. The delayed effect observed is not consistent with the effect of RTX in other autoimmune diseases, a delayed response in ITP for example is seen within 8 weeks [6].

In fact, as Jonathan has explained, those bits in bold are completely untrue because the delayed effect is quite typical of response to RTX in autoimmune diseases, and as I understand it the graphs of the response over time in that study were also typical of response to RTX. As an amateur looking at the evidence from that trial, I actually think that the fact of the delayed response curve being consistent with what's expected is even more compelling evidence than the headline statistics (p values and response rates etc) because it clearly shows that the subjects are indeed responding to RTX in the usual way that autoimmune patients might be expected to respond, and in turn this is good evidence that the patients who respond did have an autoimmune condition.

Perhaps 'outrageous' was putting it a bit strong, but to me it was an outrageous thing to state this criticism as fact when it clearly isn't the case. I think he was hoping/expecting to get away with the smear, and he probably would have done if Jonathan hadn't rebutted what he said.
 

Cheshire

Senior Member
Messages
1,129
Richard Smith: QMUL and King’s college should release data from the PACE trial

16 Dec, 15 | by BMJ

Several times when I was the editor of The BMJ the journal was declared the worst medical journal in the world by the ME (Myalgic Encephalomyelitis) Association. Sometimes we shared the award with The Lancet. At another time my wife was telephoned and told that if I didn’t take a different line on ME (which is better known as chronic fatigue syndrome) then “something horrible” would happen to me. So I know something about the emotion that surrounds chronic fatigue syndrome, but I still that think that Queen Mary College London (QMUL) and King’s College London are making a serious mistake in refusing to release the data behind a controversial trial of treatments for chronic fatigue syndrome.

http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2015/12/16...lege-should-release-data-from-the-pace-trial/

Edit: twitteed by Simon Wessely

Simon Wessely ‏@WesselyS 14 minil y a 14 minutes

New @bmj_latest blog from @pRichard56 on PACE trial and data sharing http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2015/12/16/richard-smith-qmul-and-kings-college-should-release-data-from-the-pace-trial/…

(@Bob How do you insert a tweet?)
 
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