The Power and Pitfalls of Omics: George Davey Smith’s storming talk at ME/CFS conference
Read about the talk that stole the show at a recent ME/CFS conference in Simon McGrath's two-part blog.
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Counter petition to the MEGA petition, brainstorming stage

Discussion in 'Petitions' started by AndyPR, Sep 29, 2016.

  1. Jan

    Jan Senior Member

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    Aww, ok then, I won't worry my pretty little head about it :)

    :bang-head::bang-head::bang-head::bang-head::bang-head::bang-head::bang-head::bang-head::bang-head::bang-head::bang-head::bang-head::bang-head::bang-head::bang-head::bang-head::bang-head::bang-head::bang-head::bang-head:
     
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  2. Jan

    Jan Senior Member

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    Just a thought, how many UK doctors, let alone researchers,
    have even seen a patient with severe ME? Nigel Speight is one I can think of, poor chap.
     
  3. TiredSam

    TiredSam The wise nematode hibernates

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    Esther Crawley has only ever seen mild and pervasive refusal syndrome.
     
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  4. Jo Best

    Jo Best Senior Member

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    I think an important difference between the deep dive, big data, hypothesis-free approach of Ron Davis and Rob Naviaux is that they began with a small well-characterised patient group.

    Ron Davis, in particular, chose to study severely ill patients because he reasoned that markers would be stronger in those patients, and a similar point was made about the small number of patients in the proposed NIH study of post-viral ME/CFS, that if nothing useful is found in an intensive study of a small number of well-characterised patients, then it probably isn't there.

    I have never seen the like of this petitioning by researchers for public support (anyone can sign a petition) in order to obtain funds. I've also never seen signatories to a petition add comments to the effect that they have signed on trust.

    The whole thing looks unprofessional and unethical to me, and also reflects the confusion that I see among the members of the CMRC about the basics of the disease/s under investigation.

    I agree with the observation made by Ron Davis at IIMEC11 -

    “Cancer is complicated. ME/CFS is complicated”.

    I do get that a study of 12,000 ill-defined patients may clarify some of that confusion and help sort out the diagnostic mess created by the CFS Oxford Criteria and CFS/ME NICE guideline, but the main issue at hand is the petition, which has had the effect of a deep dive in my confidence that the MEGA study will deliver.

    My advice to researchers interested in helping to sort out the complexities of ME/CFS is to request involvement in the Invest in ME Biomedical Research into ME Colloquium. To quote the charity -

    "In fact, the mood amongst researchers has improved since we began our colloquiums and fortunately we have many researchers now interested in entering this research area - as witnessed by the large number of "new" entrants to this research and present at our Colloquium in London in June. We hope more will attend in the 2017 Colloquium."
     
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  5. Wildcat

    Wildcat

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    'Well characterised' does not mean diagnosis by the NHS Criteria (NICE).
    .
     
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  6. Jo Best

    Jo Best Senior Member

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  7. Wildcat

    Wildcat

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    Who are the Patient Advisory Group? Patients advising the Collaborative? Selected by who? AFME?
     
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  8. BurnA

    BurnA Senior Member

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    Anxiety ? Depression?
     
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  9. AndyPR

    AndyPR Senior Member

    So I've just really appreciated that, taking this update at face value, I wouldn't qualify for inclusion in the study, on the basis that I last attended a clinic 10 years ago. In that time I have gone from mild to moderate and am no longer working but "no clinic, no inclusion". And they'd still like me to sign the petition to support this....
     
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  10. AndyPR

    AndyPR Senior Member

    Got to shoe horn the BPSers and their beliefs in somehow.
     
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  11. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    Same here. I quickly exhausted the value my CFS clinic has to offer me and when they made me bed bound by encouraging me to do GET I decided it was a negative relationship I would not maintain. So you'll get those who stick around (who may not have ME) and those who are new to it and don't know what is in their interests yet.
     
  12. thegodofpleasure

    thegodofpleasure Player in a Greek Tragedy

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    I've posted this comment on the Change.org petition update webpage:

    https://www.change.org/p/support-th...ation-to-major-uk-research-funders/u/18056402

     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2016
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  13. trishrhymes

    trishrhymes Senior Member

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    I'm not sure your point 5 about trial protocol makes sense for this kind of study, since it is an exploratory data search, not a trial of any treatment, so outcome measures will be genetic, metabolic etc data, not responses to treatment. I understand why you have included this point after the PACE fiasco, and I made the same mistake at first until someone put me straight!
     
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  14. thegodofpleasure

    thegodofpleasure Player in a Greek Tragedy

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    O.K. point taken. But to some extent it depends on what's in their final written proposal.
    In the circumstances, it's a perfectly reasonable (distrustful) response to their ham-fisted handling of the situation.
    There's no knowing what jiggery pokery will go on if they're given free reign to do so - especially with Crawley and White involved.
     
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  15. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl Senior Member

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    I just want to chime in with my experiences of receiving calls from people who have been given a diagnosis of 'CFS' from the fatigue clinics. Several years ago the people who phoned for information and support usually gave a clear medical history of ME. Their accounts were typical of Ramsey, ICC or CCC ME.

    However, in recent years, few of the people I speak to resemble ME patients and clearly, in my opinion, do not have ME, but some other condition that I don't recognise. They tell me they definitely have ME as 'the psychiatrist' told them so. In my opinion, they are being misled.

    I rang the local CFS clinic which is run from the local old Victorian lunatic asylum and they assured me that CFS is a mental health condition and not a physical illness. A doctor told me a few weeks ago that CFS or ME is just a label 'we give to people with mental health problems and that it doesn't exist as a physical illness'. It is from this group of patients diagnosed by doctors with this misunderstanding of the illness from which the MEGA study will select their subjects . How can we possibly have confidence in their selection criteria? Obviously we can't. It is a complete mess.
     
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  16. TiredSam

    TiredSam The wise nematode hibernates

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    With 250,000 sufferers in the UK, the priority should be how to identify (and help?) them. Once that's done, we can talk about inclusion criteria for the MEGA study. Using the CCC to identify less than 5% of sufferers in the UK for a study of 12,000 - doable innit? If not, go back to the drawing board and get that sorted. Once you have, you can study them and identify and play around with your subsets from them. Using the current completely broken system to recruit patients makes no sense at all, due to bias, cherry picking, including lots of people with other illnesses and missing lots of people (severe, long-term, decided not to bother with the system in the UK for self-protection) with ME.

    Will Esther Crawley be putting pressure on the parents of children with ME to join the study under threat of reporting them to the authorities and having their kids rediagnosed with mental illness / taken away? There are accounts on PR from parents who have suffered direct experience of EC which confirm that that is her MO.
     
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  17. charles shepherd

    charles shepherd Senior Member

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    I don't believe that this account of your local ME/CFS service (are you able to say where it is?) is typical of the overall picture of the ME/CFS clinics/services

    The MEA receives a constant stream of requests from people who are desperate for a diagnosis of what is best described as symptoms that may or may not be ME/CFS

    Consequently I am (or we are) referring large numbers of people to these NHS clinics - as this is the only way of getting a more thorough clinical assessment or diagnosis if the GP is unable to do so

    We also obviously receive a large amount of patient feedback from people who go to these NHS clinics

    The overall picture is actually very mixed - we receive excellent or good feedback in some cases and mediocre or negative feedback in others

    As a quick practical example, I did a radio programme for BBC Scotland (where referral services are almost non existent) a few weeks ago and while on air we received a number of unsolicited and really quite positive comments about one service there in Edinburgh. And whenever this service is discussed on our Facebook page there are always people who express positive experiences

    But, as I say, the picture is very mixed

    MEA directory of NHS referral services for ME/CFS:

    http://www.meassociation.org.uk/nhs-specialist-services-throughout-the-uk/
     
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  18. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl Senior Member

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    @charles shepherd Yes, it is the Devon clinic. I rang them about a year ago, maybe less and was given this information.

    The following quote I used was from an A&E doctor from the Wonford, which is adjacent to the building from which the clinic is run. I had just been taken in with cardiac problems and he warned me that if my diagnosis was discovered that ' my colleagues won't treat you kindly'.

    A local GP from the same area phoned me to ask for advice on ME as he believed he had developed the illness and told me that he was fearful of his colleagues discovering that he had ME as, to use his exact words, ' Doctors regard people with ME with even more contempt than they do people with depression'.

    It would be brilliant if the MEA could promote some medical education about ME in East Devon as it still seems to be somewhat of a medical wilderness.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2016
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  19. charles shepherd

    charles shepherd Senior Member

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    Info on Devon ME/CFS service from MEA website below

    We receive very little feedback on this particular service

    From memory, it has normally been more positive than negative

    You could start a discussion on the MEA Facebook page if you want to to get a better idea of the overall picture:

    Devon

    South and West Devon CFS/ME Service is run on behalf of Torbay and Southern Devon Health and Care NHS Trust at the following address: 3rd Floor, Union House, Union Street, Torquay TQ1 3YA. Administrator: Louise Swann, tel: 01803 219 859 fax: 01803 219 893 email:swdevoncfsme.sdhc@nhs.net

    The EXETER EAST, MID AND NORTH DEVON CFS/ME Service is based at the Arlington Centre, Whipton Hospital, Hospital Lane, Whipton, Exeter EX1 3RB, tel: 01392 208 614

    The PLYMOUTH service is run on behalf of Sentinel Healthcare SouthWest Community Interest Company at the following address: Express Diagnostics & Treatment Centre, Plymouth Science Park, Plymouth PL6 8BU. Administrator: Trudi, tel: 0845 155 8297 Email:PCHCIC.SentinelClinicalTreatmentService@nhs.net

    The Service Manager/Senior CFS/ME Specialist for both the above services covering the whole of the South and West of Devon.
The team currently consists of a medical lead Dr Robert Gardner, Senior specialist Occupational therapists, two specialist Occupational Therapists and two administrators (as below).
The service is an adult community service providing, assessment, diagnosis and treatment for individuals suffering the complex symptoms of CFS/ME. The service is offered where appropriate to all levels of CFS/ME, mild, moderate and severe. 
Along with the treatment approaches advised by NICE guidelines this service is also part of a national group auditing and implementing research and evidenced-based Mindfulness CBT approaches, to support patients psychologically with coping with this condition. The service is also able to provide extensive knowledge gained through patient experience and reporting.
     
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  20. charles shepherd

    charles shepherd Senior Member

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    As I'm also dealing with flu jabs this morning, interesting to note that this report on a potential serious adverse reaction to the flu jab in ME/CFS came from the staff at the Devon ME/CFS service:

    http://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f6705/rr/687260
     
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