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Could XMRV Be Transmitted by Vaccine?

Discussion in 'XMRV Testing, Treatment and Transmission' started by slayadragon, Jun 15, 2010.

  1. Cloud

    Cloud Guest

    "Tinfoil hat on or off".....Lol, gonna steal that one Leela. All my work in psych, never heard that one (although have seen lots of tin foil hats).

    Since we are speculating....Nope it's not too far out at all to consider a contaminated vaccine connection. The conspiracy belief pendulum can swing too far either direction from completely believable to way out there "nutsoid". IMO, the idea of a contaminated vaccine link to the current neuro-immune disease epidemic, lands just on the believable side of center. I think it's more difficult to believe there is no connection whatsoever. Your right about....The problem of contaminated vaccines is nothing new.....the timing with the spike in vaccine use and the explosion of neuro-immune disease....the bizarre political resistance to acceptance of these diseases....the locked UK archives on ME...etc, etc. It's kinda hard to rationally believe somethings not awry. As far as vaccine not explaining outbreaks? The contamination could have happened via vaccine years, even decades prior to disease onset and remained latent and controlled by our immune system until that certain immune insult with another infection, stress, vaccine, etc. It seems to me that since we have both sporadic and cluster outbreaks, the primary agent had to of been there prior to onset.....that is if we really have one sole cause of ME/CFS. A retrovirus makes the most sense to me.

    I did not have an infectious onset....I was very healthy when in 1993 my ME/CFS was triggered by the Hep B vaccine. But that vaccine was likely not contaminated because none of my peers got sick (although Hep B seems to be the most common vaccine trigger). But the vaccine certainly triggered something that was already there. Genetic predisposition doesn't always add up (ie. cluster outbreaks) either. So just what was it that was already there? Contaminated vaccine from childhood (ie. Polio)? Vertical transmission? Vector? Other latent infections?
  2. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

    Couchland, USA
    Somewhere, a while back, I read some very explicit information about an alleged contaminant in the polio vaccines administered in
    the 60s-70s. Let me do some digging; I remember raising an eyebrow (and fingering tin foil) upon reading it. Was it those green monkeys and their
    SCMV? I'll go look....
  3. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

    Couchland, USA
    Well, I can't find the exact one, but I think what I'm remembering was one of John Martin's articles over at ccid.org about green monkeys and stealth virus.
    I am intrigued by Dr Martin's research, for many reasons; but what strikes me more since the XMRV abstracts came out, is this seeming synergistic connection between the X/P retrovirus and the herpes-family of viruses. Stealth, mutational, cooperative--all these things could apply.

    This site, which I just found, feels much more tin-foil-hatty. It specifically mentions (among a whole lot of other things) the Hep B vaccine and contamination.
    But it's a site that promotes the idea of deliberate infection by nefarious governmental agencies. I can't quite go there, but there has been some nasty stuff done under wraps.

    One thing that really stands out, though, is how Dr Martin and Dr Wakefield were both stripped of their medical licenses in the UK for even suggesting the idea of vaccine
    contamination. They have both been allowed to practice in the US; however apparently there have been US sanctions against Dr Martin recently, citing "unscientific study."

    Here are some scary quotes from a handout Dr M gave to the NIH in 1996:

    "All eleven monkeys studied demonstrated the presence of CMV-like agents. These monkeys all originated from Kenya over a short period of time. Seven of these monkeys would have passed our existing test standards, only one of these monkeys would have passed our test methods using Lederle 130 human diploid cell strain..... We plan to continue to process monkeys at the rate of five per week, probably through October 1972, to provide us with thirty million doses of trivalent poliovirus vaccine...... Unless and until Pfizer's Diplovax is in abundant supply, the BB [Bureau of Biologics] cannot risk Lederle being off the market."
    Lederle's "Cytomegalovirus Contingency Plan", 8/4/1972

    "I do not believe our problem with the slow release of specific lots of Orimune(R) are a result of a Pfizar influence..... Furthermore, if the Bureau wanted to restrict us they could bring up the subject of CMV (Cytomegalovirus) in our substrate (i.e. African green monkey kidney tissue) which they have not done, even though they have told us the monkeys in the collaborative study performed in 1972 were all positive for this agent."
    Memo to the President of American Cyanamid, 1973

    I remember taking those little red oral polio booster packets!
  4. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

  5. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

    Couchland, USA
    Okay, further reading of some more conspiracy-minded sites lead me to an article that stated the US Department of the Army holds a patent on mycoplasma! Ack!
    Googling it further to see if it was true (and it is) it turns out Dr Lo co-holds that patent. Which lead me to another thread here at PR, which is worth taking a look at:

    The question I still can't wrap my head around is this:
    Whether deliberate or accidental, if vast populations of people have been contaminated via vaccination or other means by a known or mysterious pathogen--covering your ass is one thing, and it's human nature/economic nature (though morally reprehensible) to do so. But you can still, even whilst scrambling around pointing fingers everywhere else, make boatloads of money manufacturing and approving a cure/antidote/whatever. This is what makes it difficult for me to believe in vast conspiracies, because money is where everything leads in the end. Someone stands to make a great deal of money dealing cures for these things. I think the in-fighting and slowness and FDA bullshit etc chalks up more to ineptitude and beaurocratic narcissism more than conspiratorial choreography.

    Still...a patent on mycoplasma? WTF?!
  6. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

    Couchland, USA
  7. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

    Couchland, USA
    Okay, one more very clear, sobering description of vaccination and contamination:

    The whole article is worth reading, but here's one paragraph:

  8. paddygirl

    paddygirl Senior Member

    Government for the people by the people....yea right.

    I have no problem believing in nefarious government.

    Ireland has a shameful history of child abuse in many senses.

    I remember the sixties in Ireland and subliminaly understanding that children had no rights. There was a lot of pious talk, but as we all know it hid a hideous reality.

    About three weeks ago both of our national daily newspapers had a front page story about vaccines and children in the fifties in Ireland. Back then, if a single woman had a child out of wedlock, she was 'persuaded' to give her child up for adoption. There are endless heartbreaking stories.

    This story concerns one such adopted child, now in late middle age and living in the States. Somehow she had got hold of her medical records for the period she had spent in the orphanage in Ireland before adoption. She found out that children in that and other orphanages had been used by a drug company to trial a vaccine combination that was untested. Who gave permission I do not know, but in those days the Church and State were closely intertwined, with the Church having unimaginable power.

    The drug company wanted to see if there were any side effects from this particular combination as it had never been done before, they wanted to combine the vaccinations for ease of administration. The result is Irelands Tuskagee, take the most vulnerable you can possibly imagine and use them, I'm sure the local bishops would have had no problem, wrong side of the sheets and all that.

    I spent some time in a sanitorium as a young child for TB, and my own symptoms of ME leave me with a distinct drag on my left side, which I believe is common. I would have no problem in believing in tainted vaccinations.

    I don't know how to copy and paste but the two papers are The Irish Independant and the Irish Times if anyone wants to have a look.


    The woman has as yet no related medical problems, but is awaiting more information to proceed. Our politicians didn't exactly fall over themselves to investigate but after some pressure have agreed to do so.
  9. Cloud

    Cloud Guest

    Thanks for those links Leela. The CMV & Hep B contamination is really interesting. I can easily believe I got the CMV from contaminated vaccine stock. Maybe the xmrv as well. I used to have lots of files and links on the contaminated vaccine issue, as well as a lot on engineered Micoplasma. Read everything on Dr Nicholson and about the threats on his life over these issues. But, I would have to research it over again now....been a while. Our governments do have a long history of testing new drugs and weapons on the innocent and uninformed. I doubt that to be the case with any vaccine contamination issues now, but we know there is a connection somewhere. I think most of us believe they would at least cover up anything threatening their vested interests regardless of the harm done. Maybe they are innocent as far as any original contamination, but I wouldn't doubt they continued using vaccines after learning of a contamination. Some of these links talk about just that very thing. Some in the Autism community are scholars on all this old vaccine information.

    Paddy...you have seen a left side drag to be common? I'm curious because I get that too. It will worsen with flares and all the others symptoms....so I know it's related. It's seems to be the only motor neuron symptom that I have.
  10. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

    Very recently, I was talking to a patient from the Lake Tahoe epidemic from the 1980s. She taught at a nearby public school in California and said that she was required to get a Hepatitis B shot for her job, and that she believed that all the other teachers in the nearby school districts were as well.

    I wonder if that might have been related to the epidemic at Truckee High School. Does anyone have any info about this?

    Thanks, Lisa
  11. alice1

    alice1 Senior Member

    24 years ago I went to work in the Philippines.I had one shot in Los Angeles and the booster in Manila when I got there.
    That evening I thought I was going to die and I've been sick ever since.To date diagnosed by DR klimas with having CEBV..waiting for the test kit for XMRV.
  12. ggingues

    ggingues $10 gift code at iHerb GAS343 of $40

    Concord, NH
    I think Dr. Mercola had something on this women in the YouTube, not sure how credible he and she is? thoughts?
  13. paddygirl

    paddygirl Senior Member

    Hi Cloud, I have spoken to many people who have this left side problem. I was at a talk in Galway given by an ME specialist and mentioned it in a question. About half a dozen or more people said it also was the case for them. Others came up after the talk and said the same thing. Everytime I speak to someone with ME/FM I ask and mostly people agree.

    I get odd looks if I mention it to my doctor so no help there. Its as if there is a concentration of pain stiffness and paralysis on that side. I'm going to the NJ talk on October 17th with Dr Mikovits, I had been planning on asking her about it if I get a chance at the Q & A.

  14. Jemal

    Jemal Senior Member

    Not sure if someone has already posted this, but Fox News did an item on the correlation between vaccines and autism. There has been some discussion about research which revealed that of the 17 children with autism participating in the investigation 14 had XMRV.


    The video is really slow for me though, so I haven't watched it yet.
  15. Cloud

    Cloud Guest

    I used to run vaccine clinics in one of my RN jobs (before I got sick, or knew of the dangers)....and we did whole schools. 100's of students and teachers lined up back to back...flu and Hep B vaccines. Many clinics are taken right to the school or place of business....they get the shot and go right back to work.

    Nurses are required to get many vaccines. Most are required while still in school. I too had to get the Hep B vaccine for my job.....if only I knew then, what I know now.

    Paddy....Thanks for sharing. If you remember, please send me any info you got on this. I think it's really strange that I have that one motor neuron symptom.....kinda like a cross over into MS
  16. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

    Don't know if others have mentioned this yet, but the attenuation of the immune system from vaccination might be one of the triggers for chronic illness from vaccination in people with specific genetic immune abnormalities. Personally I think that is a better explanation than contamination of the vaccinations, although certainly some batches of vaccinations HAVE been found contaminated. The problem with a vaccination theory for MLV class viruses is that most vaccinations are cultured in chicken egg materials and not mouse materials. So there is a very low likelihood of MLV being spread through vaccinations. What seems more likely to me is that a vaccination may trigger some type of immune problem, from the direct injection of the antigen remnant (which generally does not happen in nature, our immune system is not designed for that). That then becomes a 'load' on the detox and immune system, creating metabolic vulnerability to later events, stressors, etc.
  17. Cloud

    Cloud Guest

    Kurt, I think your correct with the xmrv. I believe in my case that the xmrv was there long before disease onset, and the Hep B vaccine caused an immune insult precisely as you describe, which then allowed the xmrv to activate. The vaccine was a trigger, not a cause. But who knows how the xmrv got there originally? I'm sure to of had xmrv many years before onset of ME/CFS, and that could have happened via contaminated vaccine. But since the only one I remember getting as a kid was the Polio vaccine, the potential sources would be quite limited. I could believe that I got the CMV via contaminated vaccine.....but I would guess vertical transmission on the xmrv.

    "According to Dr. Mikovits, XMRV can lie dormant in people, until it is "turned on or off" by other factors, such as stress hormones like cortisol, or in response to the presence of inflammatory "cytokines," protein molecules secreted by immune cells to help regulate the immune system.

    And then Dr. Mikovits dropped a bombshell that is sure to spark controversy.

    "On that note, if I might speculate a little bit," she said, "This might even explain why vaccines would lead to autism in some children, because these viruses live and divide and grow in lymphocytes -- the immune response cells, the B and the T cells. So when you give a vaccine, you send your B and T cells in your immune system into overdrive. That's its job. Well, if you are harboring one virus, and you replicate it a whole bunch, you've now broken the balance between the immune response and the virus. So you have had the underlying virus, and then amplified it with that vaccine, and then set off the disease, such that your immune system could no longer control other infections, and created an immune deficiency."

    I think she's right
  18. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

    Couchland, USA
    Put on your Tin Foil Hats and Read This

    Down to the very last paragraph, this is a very sobering article, and makes me feel my tinfoil antennae twitch towards the worst possible reasons the CDC and GMC have been so denialist and secretive about ME/CFS.


    U.S. Apologizes for Syphilis Tests in Guatemala
    Published: October 1, 2010

    From 1946 to 1948, American public health doctors deliberately infected nearly 700 Guatemalans prison inmates, mental patients and soldiers with venereal diseases in what was meant as an effort to test the effectiveness of penicillin.

    American tax dollars, through the National Institutes of Health, even paid for syphilis-infected prostitutes to sleep with prisoners, since Guatemalan prisons allowed such visits. When the prostitutes did not succeed in infecting the men, some prisoners had the bacteria poured onto scrapes made on their penises, faces or arms, and in some cases it was injected by spinal puncture.
    If the subjects contracted the disease, they were given antibiotics.
    However, whether everyone was then cured is not clear, said Susan M. Reverby, the professor at Wellesley College who brought the experiments to light in a research paper that prompted American health officials to investigate.

    The revelations were made public on Friday, when Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius apologized to the government of Guatemala and the survivors and descendants of those infected. They called the experiments clearly unethical.
    Although these events occurred more than 64 years ago, we are outraged that such reprehensible research could have occurred under the guise of public health, the secretaries said in a statement. We deeply regret that it happened, and we apologize to all the individuals who were affected by such abhorrent research practices.

    In a twist to the revelation, the public health doctor who led the experiment, John C. Cutler, would later have an important role in the Tuskegee study in which black American men with syphilis were deliberately left untreated for decades. Late in his own life, Dr. Cutler continued to defend the Tuskegee work.

    His unpublished Guatemala work was unearthed recently in the archives of the University of Pittsburgh by Professor Reverby, a medical historian who has written two books about Tuskegee.
    President lvaro Colom of Guatemala, who first learned of the experiments on Thursday in a phone call from Mrs. Clinton, called them hair-raising and crimes against humanity. His government said it would cooperate with the American investigation and do its own.

    The experiments are a dark chapter in the history of medicine, said Dr. Francis S. Collins, director of the National Institutes of Health. Modern rules for federally financed research absolutely prohibit infecting people without their informed consent, Dr. Collins said.
    Professor Reverby presented her findings about the Guatemalan experiments at a conference in January, but nobody took notice, she said in a telephone interview Friday. In June, she sent a draft of an article she was preparing for the January 2011 issue of the Journal of Policy History to Dr. David J. Sencer, a former director of the Centers for Disease Control. He prodded the government to investigate.

    In the 1940s, Professor Reverby said, the United States Public Health Service was deeply interested in whether penicillin could be used to prevent, not just cure, early syphilis infection, whether better blood tests for the disease could be established, what dosages of penicillin actually cured infection, and to understand the process of re-infection after cures.
    It had difficulties growing syphilis in the laboratory, and its tests on rabbits and chimpanzees told it little about how penicillin worked in humans.

    In 1944, it injected prison volunteers at the Terre Haute Federal Penitentiary in Indiana with lab-grown gonorrhea, but found it hard to infect people that way.
    In 1946, Dr. Cutler was asked to lead the Guatemala mission, which ended two years later, partly because of medical gossip about the work, Professor Reverby said, and partly because he was using so much penicillin, which was costly and in short supply.

    Dr. Cutler would later join the study in Tuskegee, Ala., which had begun relatively innocuously in 1932 as an observation of how syphilis progressed in black male sharecroppers. In 1972, it was revealed that, even when early antibiotics were invented, doctors hid that fact from the men in order to keep studying them. Dr. Cutler, who died in 2003, defended the Tuskegee experiment in a 1993 documentary.

    Deception was also used in Guatemala, Professor Reverby said. Dr. Thomas Parran, the former surgeon general who oversaw the start of Tuskegee, acknowledged that the Guatemala work could not be done domestically, and details were hidden from Guatemalan officials.
    Professor Reverby said she found some of Dr. Cutlers papers at the University of Pittsburgh, where he taught until 1985, while she was researching Dr. Parran.
    Im sifting through them, and I find Guatemala ... inoculation ... and I think What the heck is this? And then it was Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. My partner was with me, and I told him, You arent going to believe this.*

    Fernando de la Cerda, minister counselor at the Guatemalan Embassy in Washington, said that Mrs. Clinton apologized to President Colom in her Thursday phone call. We thank the United States for its transparency in telling us the facts, he said.
    Asked about the possibility of reparations for survivors or descendants, Mr. de la Cerda said that was still unclear.
    The public response on the Web sites of Guatemalan news outlets was furious. One commenter, Cesar Duran, on the site of Prensa Libre wrote: APOLOGIES ... please ... this is what has come to light, but what is still hidden? They should pay an indemnity to the state of Guatemala, not just apologize.

    Dr. Mark Siegler, director of the Maclean Center for Clinical Medical Ethics at the University of Chicagos medical school, said he was stunned. This is shocking, Dr. Siegler said. This is much worse than Tuskegee at least those men were infected by natural means.
    He added: Its ironic no, its worse than that, its appalling that, at the same time as the United States was prosecuting Nazi doctors for crimes against humanity, the U.S. government was supporting research that placed human subjects at enormous risk.

    The Nuremberg trials of Nazi doctors who experimented on concentration camp inmates and prisoners led to a code of ethics, though it had no force of law. In the 1964 Helsinki Declaration, the medical associations of many countries adopted a code.

    The Tuskegee scandal and the hearings into it conducted by Senator Edward M. Kennedy became the basis for the 1981 American laws governing research on human subjects, Dr. Siegler said.
    It was preceded by other domestic scandals. From 1963 to 1966, researchers at the Willowbrook State School on Staten Island infected retarded children with hepatitis to test gamma globulin against it. And in 1963, elderly patients at the Brooklyn Jewish Chronic Disease Hospital were injected with live cancer cells to see if they caused tumors.

    Elisabeth Malkin contributed reporting from Mexico City
  19. Cloud

    Cloud Guest

    Thanks Leela... That apology is damage control because this story was surfacing anyhow.


    Hillary and Kathleen both know this is but the tip of the iceberg....the apology makes me want to puke. The difference between an apology and making amends is.....an apology is just a verbal statement expressing regret, whereas an amends, is making the verbal statement of regret, and then take action by amending the wrong, and then not doing it anymore.

    We need an amends for all their unethical actions.
  20. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    Hi Leela

    In response to the "put on your tin foil hats" post, this incident was on multiple news channels on Australian TV yesterday. It is definitely global. It came as no surprise, and definitely is going to fuel some conspiracy theorists. It made me wonder, yet again, what the UK government is hiding under the official secrets act to do with CFS.


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