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Could XMRV Be Transmitted by Vaccine?

Discussion in 'XMRV Testing, Treatment and Transmission' started by slayadragon, Jun 15, 2010.

  1. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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    Someone suggested to me the other day that she thought that XMRV might be transmitted via vaccine.

    Thus, when I came across the following article, I thought I'd post it on the board.

    I find this interesting because my own downturn in health occurred almost immediately after getting a series of three Hepatitis B shots in 1994. The initial signs were just declines in energy/cognitive focus/mood, but more symptoms emerged over the next year until a bad "flu" propelled me into classic CFS.

    I've encountered a number of other people who have said that their own descent into CFS started just after being vaccinated, or that they got CFS within a year or two after getting vaccinated.

    And, of course, vaccines are said to be linked to autism (which seems to have a lot in common with CFS even though I've not heard of XMRV being considered in that disease).

    Maybe the mercury isn't causal. Maybe it's the virus.

    Does anyone have any thoughts about the article?

    Does anyone else here think that vaccines may have played some sort of role in their own illness?

    Thanks.

    Best, Lisa

    *

    Biologicals. 2010 May;38(3):371-6. Epub 2010 Apr 8.
    Endogenous retroviruses as potential hazards for vaccines.
    Miyazawa T.

    Laboratory of Signal Transduction, Department of Cell Biology, Institute for Virus Research, Kyoto University, 53 Shogoin-Kawaracho, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8507, Japan. takavet@gmail.com
    Abstract
    Retroviruses are classified as exogenous or endogenous according to their mode of transmission. Generally, endogenous retroviruses (ERVs) are not pathogenic in their original hosts; however, some ERVs induce diseases. In humans, a novel gammaretrovirus was discovered in patients with prostate cancer or chronic fatigue syndrome. This virus was closely related to xenotropic murine leukemia virus (X-MLV) and designated as xenotropic murine leukemia virus-related virus (XMRV). The origin and transmission route of XMRV are still unknown at present; however, XMRV may be derived from ERVs of rodents because X-MLVs are ERVs of inbred and wild mice. Many live attenuated vaccines for animals are manufactured by using cell lines from animals, which are known to produce infectious ERVs; however, the risks of infection by ERVs from xenospecies through vaccination have been ignored. This brief review gives an overview of ERVs in cats, the potential risks of ERV infection by vaccination, the biological characteristics of RD-114 virus (a feline ERV), which possibly contaminates vaccines for companion animals, and the methods for detection of infectious RD-114 virus. 2010 The International Association for Biologicals. Published by Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.

    PMID: 20378372 [PubMed - in process]
  2. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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    And here's another article on vaccines and CFS.

    *

    Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2009 Sep;1173:600-9.
    Infection, vaccination, and autoantibodies in chronic fatigue syndrome, cause or coincidence?

    Ortega-Hernandez OD, Shoenfeld Y.

    Department of Internal Medicine B and Research for Autoimmune Diseases, Sheba Medical Center, Tel Hashomer, Israel.
    Abstract

    Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is a heterogeneous syndrome of unknown etiology and physiopathology. CFS patients complain about disabling fatigue, depression, difficulty with memory, and concomitant skeletal and muscular pain. Interestingly enough, there is certain overlap between CFS symptoms, autoimmune rheumatic disease, and infectious diseases. Certain neuroendocrine-immune abnormalities have also been described, and autoantibodies commonly described in some autoimmune diseases have been found in CFS patients as well. An increasing number of autoantibodies, mainly directed against other nuclear cell components, have been illustrated. Likewise, an association between some infectious agents, antibody production, and later CFS onset has been reported. Similarly, vaccination is depicted as playing an important role in CFS onset. Recently, a case report pointed toward a causal association between silicone breast linkage, hepatitis B virus vaccination, and CFS onset in a previous healthy woman. Such findings suggest that there is a likely deregulation of the immune system influenced by specific agents (infections, vaccination, and products, such as silicone). Evidence suggests that CFS is a complex disease in which several risk factors might interact to cause its full expression. Thus, although different alterations have been found in CFS patients, undoubtedly the main feature is central nervous system involvement with immunological alterations. Therefore, a new term neuro-psycho-immunology must be quoted. New studies based on this concept are needed in order to investigate syndromes, such as CFS, in which immunological alterations are thought to be associated with concomitant psychological and health disturbances.

    PMID: 19758205 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
  3. kolowesi

    kolowesi Senior Member

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    Thanks, Slayadragon. My cat became ill after a rabies vaccination. She lived 9 more years, but was never the same. She had immune abnormalities and some lesions the vets thought were herpes, but she had no "herpes inclusion bodies." I knew something was wrong with her reaction to the vaccine, a large and hard lump about 1.5 inches in diameter. (I was already sick, so didn't catch anything from her.)

    Also, on a slightly related note, I once googled "mycoplasma and vaccines" and got loads of links about contamination of cell lines by mycoplasma. This is something I believe I picked up from a flu shot, 3 months before I came down with whatever it is that I have. I am wondering if XMRV is a rider in other micro-organisms, such as Lyme, HHV-6a, etc. Maybe if a person does not have the co-infection, the XMRV stays more or less dormant. Just speculating.

    This is a very interesting connection! Thanks!
  4. Alexia

    Alexia Senior Member

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    Hi,
    I became ill 16 years ago after a vaccination. I've always had the feeling that that was not just coincidence. Up until then I was an healthy person, I ate a healthy Mediterranean diet and did a lot of sports. Nobody else in my family has this illness or other types of illnesses that could be related to XMRV. Of course it's hard to know if the virus was in the vaccination or the vaccination weaken my immune system and the virus became active.
  5. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl Senior Member

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    My dog became promptly and chronically ill after her third booster injection. After some years of chronic ill-health, the vet told me she thought my dog had what she described as 'doggy ME'. A few years ago, I was interested to watch a documentary that claimed that a number of dogs became ill with a similar condition after vaccination. Another family dog developed leukaemia immediately following her booster, which caused widespread interest amongst local vets and was reported in a scientific journal.The replies confirmed that leukaemia was a known risk following vaccination.

    I read recently (sorry, but I do not have the reference) that animal vaccines are not well screened and that it is now known that they contain retroviruses, which cause ill health in the vaccinated. This needs further exploration and, after my animals' experiences, I would not vaccinate them yearly again.
  6. Mark

    Mark Acting CEO

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    Careful Lisa, if you ask too many inconvenient questions people will start saying you're getting hysterical...

    Short answer: yes, absolutely.

    There's a paper on vaccine infection here:
    http://www.forums.aboutmecfs.org/sh...contaminated-with-pig-virus&highlight=vaccine

    But I don't think that's the one I really wanted to show you. I'm trying to recall the details. My recollection is that there was a vaccine industry paper that found retrovirus (?) infection of animals (pigs I think) via vaccine; the contamination would have been undetectable using the screening methods in place at the time. There were details on how the (retro?)virus infected the substrate used to grow the vaccine.

    I think that was around about the time we all learned about PERVs (Porcine ERVs) which gave us a good laugh. Ah, those were the days...

    I've scoured the entire library and searched on everything I can think of, but I can't find that paper now. It was definitely in there once upon a time, so I really hope somebody will pop up to point me to it...

    FWIW, my working hypothesis remains the same: specific batches of vaccines contaminated with previously unknown and undetectable retroviruses are the origin of ME/CFS and many other ideopathic neuro-immune conditions. Note that the concept of contamination of specific batches of vaccines renders all the work that supposedly debunked Wakefield's findings irrelevant. If Wakefield's patients had all been contaminated by a defective batch of MMR, then subsequent tests of an association between MMR and autism would only yield results if they were examining the same batches. Statistical studies disproving the theory that "MMR causes autism" are irrelevant because they are disproving a different hypothesis.

    And in short: since viruses and retroviruses can infect batches of vaccines, and since we still can't work out how to detect XMRV relliably (and it was only discovered 4 years ago), how are we to believe that it could not have been infecting vaccines for the last 50 years?

    It's a completely plausible explanation, and the fact that the merest suggestion of anything similar sparks an aggressive response from industry figures and accusations of hysteria and quackery, only makes me more inclined to believe that it's probably true.
  7. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi Mark,

    I have considered vaccines briefly, I knew the claim has been made about some vaccines and HIV, but I hadn't thought about it much. I like your explanation, because it explains something important: in many communities stricken with an ME or CFS or similar epidemic, many children get sick. This also happens in sporadic cases. Why are children vulnerable when they will not be at severe risk of classical retroviral modes of infection? I have wondered if this might be due to bloody noses and scrapes that children get all the time, which might put them at increased risk. A batch of contaminated vaccines is an even better explanation. Do you know if there was a recent mass vaccination at Incline Village prior to the outbreak? Examining vaccination schedules at CFS epidemics would seem to be something the CDC should have done, but I can't remember ever reading if they have ever done so.

    The obvious counter-arguement would seem to be that this would cause more CFS and ME to occur in clusters, and that many parents are aware of vaccine risks and so would notice. The counter-counter-arguement might be that this vaccine contaminant lurks until there is a trigger - would you really notice if the contaminated vaccine was used many years ago and only now something (perhaps some other epidemic infection) has triggered XMRV or another virus?

    My understanding was that XMRV was discovered in the 1980s, but was considered an unimportant mouse virus. The four years often quoted relates to the very late realization that this virus had jumped the species gap and was found in prostate cancers. If I am wrong about this, please tell me, my memory is not as good as I would wish for.

    The biggest challenge to your view will probably be that the XMRV is different (has evolved over time) from the natural contamination sources. This might be something to think about, because I really like your hypothesis. This doesn't mean that the original transmission source was not a vaccine however. There was a huge push to rapidly produce and distribute polio vaccine for decades, and now most children in the western world are vaccinated at an early age. If a number of these vaccines were contaminated (3.7% maybe?) then we would have the current situation.

    Bye
    Alex

  8. Mark

    Mark Acting CEO

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    Hi Alex, I'm continuing to enjoy your posts. :Retro smile:

    I hadn't thought about it either before XMRV came along and I found PR. In fact before that time I'm ashamed to say I just went along with what the media fed me regarding MMR. I would have regarded all the vaccine lobby issues to be ignorant unscientific nonsense. But once I started investigating the science around XMRV, I was deeply shocked to find how different the parameters of the debate really are compared to what we've been fed. I was particularly shocked by the weakness of the studies that claimed to have debunked Wakefield. I mean, they were probably brilliantly, professionally-designed studies, but just irrelevant to the important questions! And the media never told me anything about all the other studies that have confirmed Wakefield's findings.

    Quite. And here's another example: Royal Free Hospital outbreak, 1955. The outbreak predominantly affected the nurses and doctors, not the patients. Vaccination of those staff sounds like an extremely plausible explanation to me...I'd love to know what vaccinations those medical professionals received back in the day...the only other explanation I can think of for the restriction to staff is some kind of environmental explanation like a staff room with toxic mold on the wall. Either theory is still possible, and I do wonder whether there would be any way of finding answers to those questions now, all these years later.


    As far as Incline Valley goes, I would have thought if there was any mass vaccination then people would have mentioned it. But it's quite possible they all got the same batch of routine vaccines 25 years before the outbreak. From what I've read, it seems to me extremely likely that they key factor at Incline Valley is the bizarre toxic mold reported in the area. Anecdotal accounts about the mold in that area are quite compelling.

    Also note that viruses can infect mold, although I haven't heard any confirmation that retroviruses can infect mold - but it would seem a likely possibility if viruses can do so.

    As to the idea of the CDC, or any other authority, examining vaccine schedules - or indeed any other mainstream scientists investigating and looking for some kind of vaccination connection with ME/CFS - all I can say is that's a good one! :tear::tear::tear: No: you can be pretty sure nobody has ever investigated this hypothesis, or if they have, they haven't chosen to release their results...

    Exactly. The counter-counter argument highlights the point that the vaccination theory is able to explain both the clusters and the apparently sporadic cases. I haven't heard any other theory that would explain that central mystery this well.

    My understanding is that evidence of a retrovirus in ME/CFS patients was discovered by Elaine Defreitas in in the 1980s, but those findings weren't reproduced. Whereas XMRV itself was discovered by Silverman in 2006. You may be right though, Wikipedia on XMRV should clear up that question.


    Not sure I understand that point, could you elaborate?

    All you've done with that sentence so far, is remind me of Coffin's comments about how it's a little strange that XMRV shows such a low mutation rate, which means that it hasn't replicated very often and therefore he concludes this suggests it jumped species from mice relatively recently. And that's made me think that a consistent source of infection like vaccines could perhaps do a good job of explaining why the observed XMRV genome is relatively undifferentiated...

    There would seem to be a number of ways that lay people (amateur scientists) could investigate these sort of possibilities and perhaps find some suggestive correlations. Dates, years, seem very important. Sadly, there seems to be very little information collected about us as patients; they don't even have a clues how many of us there are. But I've lost count of the number of UK people who say here "15 years ago" is the time they got ill - the same time as me - and the timings of these clusterings seem intriguing. If a load of us made a couple of guesses about exactly when we got ill, and correlated that with the introduction of new vaccines, that might be interesting.

    One more thought that keeps popping up. If this hypothesis were correct, and if a group of patients managed to hook up over the internet and identify the connection between them, that could get really interesting. This would apply to any other means of transmission too - say, for example, a bunch of us found we all used to frequent the same club in Sheffield, or we all went to the Womad festival in 1995...well, now wouldn't that be interesting?...

    But in order for us to find such connections we'd need a big patient database and we'd need to share a lot of identifying information between us. The only other way I can think of is this:

    If anybody out there has found a suprising and coincidental connection between themselves and somebody else with ME/CFS, through this forum for example...then if we shared those connections publicly we might just find a few more people with the same connection. It's a long shot perhaps, but if somebody did find something like that it would have the potential to crack the whole thing wide open...

    Food for thought...

    I've got to finish with a disclaimer though. I'm not wedded to the vaccine theory at all, and I'm not remotely an "anti-vax" campaigner or anything like that. It's just an intriguing and strong possibility as far as I'm concerned - it seems to fit all the facts, and fits some of the more puzzling facts rather well, but that doesn't mean I'm running around saying "this is the answer!". But I am very much saying: there is no evidence against this theory, it's perfectly plausible, and it would be nice if somebody, somewhere, would take it seriously. And it sure as hell ain't gonna be government or the vaccine industry that does that...
  9. Martlet

    Martlet Senior Member

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    I've often wondered that. At first, I thought it might be due to the first polio vaccine I had, which was live. By the time it came round to my booster, they were using the Salk vaccine exclusively. I have no idea now if that played a role but I have a friend with post-polio syndrome and it looks an awful lot like ME/CFS.

    To be honest, nothing much would surprise me.
  10. Mark

    Mark Acting CEO

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    Not even genetically based germ warfare and weaponised mycoplasma? Whoops...maybe I shouldn't mention that sort of stuff, not sure if that comes under 'wild conspiracy theories'. :worried: Oh well, if challenged, I will seek a definition of 'wild'. ;)
  11. Rosemary

    Rosemary Senior Member

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    Interesting response from Dr. Klimas ...Dr.Klimas responds to readers questions

    Can Vaccines Set Off Chronic Fatigue Syndrome?

    I often felt that I was on my last day with C.F.S. but have been fortunate enough to have long remissions. I was diagnosed with C.F.S. in Los Angeles in the ’80s. However, in 1995, I was given the newest polio vaccine to go to Turkey, and within six weeks was deathly ill. I had lost my cognitive skills slowly, forgetting what city I was living in, where my job was, what floor it was on, what account I was working on. I couldn’t read as the words and font changed. Driving meant possible crashes. Walking was like severe vertigo. Pain felt like punches and deep wounds and the fatigue was mono on steroids.

    I go into this wondering whether the polio vaccine exacerbated the virus. I see postings about C.F.S. and the polio vaccine on Google, but was wondering whether anybody else has had these experiences. I have recently gone into a new relapse after a long remission (gratefully), and now I’m angry. Hurry please — the one and only doctor in Toronto who deals with this illness is taking no new patients. I’m alone and looking like a bit of a hypochondriac.


    Dr. Klimas responds:

    Over the years I have seen a number of individuals who have developed chronic fatigue syndrome after receiving a vaccine, most frequently the hepatitis vaccine, yet the vaccine safety studies have not noted enough cases for the link to be statistically significant. Some researchers have also examined a possible link between vaccines and Gulf War Illness, a C.F.S.-like ailment observed in those returning from the Gulf war in the early ’90s. That link has been difficult to prove one way or another, as the military no longer vaccinates troops with such a large number of vaccines at one time.

    So while I can theorize, as an immunologist, that a person predisposed to chronic fatigue syndrome who is exposed to a big enough immunologic kick could start an immune-mediated process, like autoimmunity, or reactivate a virus or viruses, we haven’t the proof. Still, when I hear your story, it makes me think that we simply don’t know enough yet.


    Expert Answers on Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
    By THE NEW YORK TIMES http://consults.blogs.nytimes.com/2...chronic-fatigue-syndrome/?partner=rss&emc=rss
  12. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    And although Andrea Whittemore became ill at age 11, she had improved enough to consider enrolling for college, but crashed worse than ever before after being vaccinated, something I guess that was required in order for her to attend school.
  13. Impish

    Impish Senior Member

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    My sister crashed badly when she got the flu vaccine. Vaccines do seem to hit CFS suffers hard. Keep in mind that there are other ways for viruses to cross species. HIV from vaccines has been quite disproven and it is now known to have crossed into people at some point in the early 1900's.

    People get bitten by mice, get mice blood on them, eat mice poop and urine in their food and are otherwise living with mice on a constant basis. They are sneaky little things.
  14. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi Mark,

    The issue is about viral mutation rates. On the one hand the virus has a small genetic spread, which means it is not old (although I can't help thinking that low copy number would slow mutation). On the other hand, if it was from a mouse virus contamination than it would be almost identical, or at least they would find some identical virus in some patients. So that means it wasn't directly a mouse contaminant. Now, if it had previously jumped the species gap to something other than mice, and mutated in that species, then little of the viral contaminant would be identical to the mouse version. Once we were infected, then it would be a different strain of the virus. For all I know we have harboured the virus for many decades, and it was a human strain that contaminated the vaccines. That might explain the rare examples of apparent ME outbreaks going back through history, although so might direct mouse contamination of food stores.

    I am unfamiliar with lab practice in vaccine labs, so I can't be sure another species was involved, but it wouldn't even have to be live animals, it could have been tissue culture. At this point this looks like a major requirement of your hypothesis, but I could be wrong. It is also possible that we might be looking in the wrong place, and should be looking at vaccine makers cultures for the source and ongoing contamination.

    Regarding the finding of XMRV in prostate cancer, it was already present on the virochip because that chip included all known mammalian viruses, and was how they found it. I recall reading somewhere that this virus was found in the 80s then ignored as just another oddity - we could have had two decades of vaccine development if someone had some foresight and funding, but as is usual when funding is tight and there are more important things to research, it was ignored. This had nothing to do with CFS at the time.

    Bye
    Alex

    PS I wanted to say on the one hand, on the other hand, and on the gripping hand, but I wonder how many would have got the literary reference?

  15. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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  16. Cloud

    Cloud Guest

    Slayadragon.....same story here. Hep B vaccine triggered my ME/CFS in 1993. Prior to that time I had been an extremely healthy and fit individual. I have no idea where I picked up the xmrv, but if it is indeed the "cause" of my illness, I see a couple possibilities: I had contracted the xmrv earlier in life and the Hep B vaccine activated it.....The Hep B vaccine was contaminated with xmrv....or, a vaccine in earlier life was contaminated with xmrv which was not triggered until receiving the Hep B vaccine in 1993. Regardless of what the science reveals on xmrv, my ME/CFS was at least "triggered" if not "caused" by vaccine.
  17. guest

    guest Guest

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    Can someone clear this up please, we get injected with vaccines that can contain viruses? Do they only check them for known viruses?
    Did any of these scientists ever come up with the idea that there may be some more viruses we don't know yet AND that it may be not very wise to distribute them through vaccines?
  18. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    One can not test for something that is not known.

    One can do everything in ones power but that does not mean everything can be prevented.

    Vaccine contamination always was a concern for those involved in that field.

    Regarding the essential vaccines the health benifits still outweight the disadvantages.
  19. Mya Symons

    Mya Symons Mya Symons

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    Origins of XMRV: Glycogag protein has 100% match for laboratory mouse strain!!!

    This is the relavent part of the TWIV which explains this virus probably came from lab contamination. It could have only come from the inbred laboratory mouse: I don't know who first posted this on youtube.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbKoTpYBY-c
  20. guest

    guest Guest

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    Thanks for the answer. This was the first time that someone told me this. If I ask doctors all they say is well, yes vaccines are dangerous because they can cause an itchy red spot on the injection site which is ridiculous compared to the danger of getting infected with unknown viruses.

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