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Could this have derailed methylation and caused ANS symptoms

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by sueami, Feb 19, 2015.

  1. sueami

    sueami Senior Member

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    Front Range Colorado
    I had been doing well enough on methylation support in the last half of last year on the deadlock quartet and some cofactors. I was taking 2-3 mg folate, 1mg mb12shot, and a few mgs sublingual of mb12 and 10 mg adb12 and lcf. My energy improved, then plateaued.

    Come the holidays, I overdo things physically and become quite fatigued. I start resting 3/4 of each day and feel much better. A week later, in early jan. I thoughtlessly run an hour's errands and completely crash to bedbound with exhaustion and mental fatigue.

    A month later, feeling a return of some energy, I foolishly try a couple short bouts of housework, triggering a PEM crash that screws up my K balance horribly and brings on POTS type tachycardia and most recently, waking with racing heart in the night.

    At first I thought methylation had ultimately failed me. Then I noticed last month that a coconut yogurt I had started consuming 3-5 times a week in late november had 25 pc of RDA of b12 added to it (I presume cyanocobalamin, but it didnt specify.)

    Also, in Sept or Oct, I had started adding in a capsule of folinic acid nightly, on the advice of a b12 oils researcher who said my snps indicated a need for folinic. I think I remember @Freddd saying folinic could in some way possibly impair folate.

    And I realized last night that I have, in my focus on mitochondrial supplementation, been neglecting to take my ADB12 tablets with any consistency in the last week or two (about when the ANS symptoms began.) I do still apply a squirt of adb12 xdermal oil, so i am getting some amount, perhaps 650mcg a day, but maybe not enough for healing.

    I did notice some noticeable brightening/personal growth breakthrough effects when I started taking Acetyl L Carnitine a month ago in the middle of the first crash, and wondered then if I had been taking the wrong form of carnitine the last 8 months.

    (I recommend trying out the form that you are not taking, once you have methylation support running smoothly, just to check.)

    All of this makes me wonder if I could have deranged my methylation support enough to allow a massive mitochondrial crash. Can ADB12 fix tachycardia and the startling awake from sleep?

    (I have managed to stop those startle wakings from becoming full on panic attacks by doing mindfulness work my anxiety/fears during the day and letting myself feel all the fears I have about being this sick, and by taping my mouth shut at night per Buteyko breathing practices. Taping prevents hyperventilation, which triggers panic and also causes you to lose a lot of water at night. I am less dehydrated in the ams now.)

    Last question: Recently I saw that someone had compiled a beautiful summary of Freddd's protocol, complete with cofactors and titration results, but I didn't bookmark it. Can anyone easily recall who that was?

    Thanks,

    sue
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2015
  2. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie

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    sheclimber and sueami like this.
  3. liverock

    liverock Senior Member

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    @sueami

    Hi Sue

    How much Potassium are you taking/day and what is your BP through the day?

    If you are stressed out your K will be lowered by adrenaline and increased BP raises Sodium which also will drain K.
    During the night also the body does cell repairs and cell replacement for dead cells again causing K depletion. Very low K is well known for muscle fatigue and tachycardia/increased heart rate.

    From my own experience when I had a bad crash, I had a Cell DNA test by Dr Myhill and found that I had the same amount of cells dying off as someone on chemotherapy.
    When this happens the body works overtime to create new cells and that can require a lot more K than normal. If you don't take extra K/Mg at bedtime it might be worthwhile.

    http://www.livestrong.com/article/537625-potassium-magnesium-supraventricular-tachycardia/
     
  4. sueami

    sueami Senior Member

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    i am taking 1500mg timed release morning and niht. i took almost 1000 mg more than that spaced out during the day when i was in PEM early days. i suppose i could try adding in another 500 or 600mg thru the day to see if that helps. my integrative doc said it would be fine for me to take the two time release caps a day. he authorized a third for just a day when i asked him about seeming to need even more.

    i take 400 mg mg glycinate twice daily too and it's no enough. i made up a strong mg oil solution and that seems to pull me out of extreme mg deficit if i keep reapplying it. i do footbaths cuz they are less energy using than taking a full bath but i do try to get a bath in at least once a week.

    looking at that article u linked i will try to up potassium a few hundred mgs and do more oil spray when i am noticing the beat skipping. ty for that.
     
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Sueami,

    At this point when everything has gotten so tangled up and confused I go back to basics, get the deadlock quartet working for healing and then add one thing at a time. The retitration can make a huge difference. You have things so mixed up now you don't know whether you have it coming or going. There are more interrelated factors than anybody can keep straight. Each time you think, "oh if I do xx then it will get that much better" and instead of going up from 7 to 8 you drop to 4 (oops). So one has to go back to where it was working pretty well and let go on "healing pretty well" for as long as you can and accept that one can't fix everything all at once so maybe it doesn't relate quite the way expected. A lot of things can't be corrected until some underlying factors are fixed first. I have had an awful 5 years since I tried to "improve" my program with glutathione. Finally, in the past month I have gotten the basics back in balance the best I've had them since before the glutathione.

    Several other items have destabilized things but nothing as terribly and for so long as the glutathione. As we don't know what the healing dependency order is, that we have to trust our bodies to do. Also, I have things going on due to aging and trying to "fix" those takes me down false tracks. I can't turn back the clock. It's important to recognize what we can affect at any given time.

    I'm on the track of refining what I'm doing slightly but don't know of anything else that might be a missing wonder ingredient. The papers on CblC Disease (adult onset) list B12 (HyCbl), "folate", (usually folic acid when not specified), TMG (betain), SAM-e and "carnitine", and comments that they work poorly at best. I found the same list with refinement; AdoCbl, MeCbl, L-methylfolate, SAM-e, TMG and L-carnitine fumarate for 90% and ALCAR for the other 10% of people and it works reasonably well.

    Anything that disturbs any one part of the deadlock quartet, ie MTHR polymorphisms, can crash the whole cycle. CblC disease (adult onset) is basically no different from any other cause of b12/folate deficiencies. It has the funky folate problems most of us here have and it has the unstable serum potassium so many here have. It doesn't change the biochemistry, just makes it more extreme and less stable in all ways. It is also perhaps why I can tell if things are going the right direction or wrong direction, high quality MeCbl or lower quality MeCbl or a bunch of other things. I can feel it in hours. My system is that unstable. So maybe that is a marker, rapidly unstable system, unstable electrolytes, unstable folate, unstable b12 and knowing it quickly.

    Good luck.
     
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  6. liverock

    liverock Senior Member

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    @sueami
    Some other instances of members needing high potassium levels.
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...assium-deficiency-share-your-experience.1629/

    Try taking 2X 1,000mg Taurine caps/day, they help damp down CNS agitation and it usually has a very calming effect on the heart.

    http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Taurine-Double-Strength-1000-mg-100-Capsules/15787

    ..................as well as improving mitochondrial function.

    https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=taurine mitochondria
     
  7. sueami

    sueami Senior Member

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    @liverock i love you. its been 4 days since i upped my k to 5000 mg or so. i am a new person. the tachycardia is resolving (none when resting now, often none when sitting up.) the palpitations and morning high anxiety are gone. i am sleeping solidly (waking once and taking a timed release k and a snack then going right back to sleep) its a freaking miracle. now i just need to keep resting and get the mitochondria online.

    i cant tell you how grateful i am for the encouragement to take more k when symptoms were bad.
     
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  8. liverock

    liverock Senior Member

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    @sueami Wow! thats great to know you are over the hill and on the way out of the crash.:thumbsup:
    It looks like you have been making too many methyl groups too fast for your COMT+ and MAO+ which is probably why it took so long to come out of it. We COMT+ sufferers feel pain more intensely as well, which makes it feel worse.
    BTW I should have mentioned when recommending Taurine, that if you have sulphur problems titrate up rather than take a full capsule.
     
    sueami likes this.
  9. sueami

    sueami Senior Member

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    i am already up to the 2gram am 2grams pm dosage. i was desperate and leapt right in. what should i watch for, if sulphur is a problem. (i was nvr quite sure if i had sulfur issues.)

    so what would be making too many methyl groips for me? mfolate? mb12? betaine? those are the things i take regularly that i can think of.
     
  10. liverock

    liverock Senior Member

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    No wonder you feel sleepy taking 4gms of Taurine:) I would drop back to 2gms/day and see how you go.
    Its hard to tell from your snp's whether you will have sulfur problems. High sulfur can cause brainfog, high ammonia and can affect moods and motivation.

    With just CBS 360A and BHMT08 and 02, you could well be that you don.t have a lot of homocysteine going down the trans-sulfation pathway to convert to sulfur.
    Its best to check with sulfate urine strips. A level of 600 is usually OK.
    A rough test is to try drinking a couple glasses of red wine,or eat some garlic for testing reactions to sulfur. ( between taurine dosages.) If sulfur strip levels test high drop the Taurine.

    Just checking your VDRTaq ++ which affects dopamine levels you will probably be OK using MB12 and Methylfolate. If you start overmethylating again and cant control it with higher K, taking 50 mg of niacin will downgrade methylation when you feel the need and help to soak up overmethylation.

    If your not already taking a B complex then Thorne Basic B Complex will provide the B2 and B6(P5P) needed for the other parts of the methylation cycle besides the methionine part covered by your transdermal oils, It also includes as well a dose of 400mcg Methylfolate.

    http://uk.iherb.com/Thorne-Research-Basic-B-Complex-60-Veggie-Caps/18791#p=1&oos=1&disc=0&lc=en-US&w=thorne basic b&rc=62&sr=null&ic=1
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2015
    sueami likes this.

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