Could the microwave soup in which we all live now partly explain the upsurge in 'CFS'?

[Hip]

I just think you have to be careful about mistaking the effects of anxiety about electrical devices, with any actual electromagnetic ill health effects that such devices may or may not produce. It can be an anxiety-provoking concept: invisible radiation that permeates the environment, which you often have no control of, and which probably does have ill health effects. That is a recipe for fear and anxiety.

Even when I read about these things, it starts to provoke anxiety. So you have to be aware of that. I find a good approach to dealing with the anxiety is to think to yourself: OK, so what health benefits might the ambient electromagnetic radiation provide? Most influences provide both positive and negative effects (eg, sunlight causes skin cancer, but also provides vitamin D).

I will try to write why I feel so strongly that microwave technology is a serious danger to health.

What we really need is more facts. This 2010 review paper, which examined 10 epidemiological studies looking at neurobehavioral effects and cancer in people living at distances of less than 500 meters from cellular base stations, found an increased prevalence of adverse neurobehavioral symptoms and cancer (in 8 out of 10 studies).

In the case of cancer, one of the studies reviewed found triple the rate of cancers in people living near a cellular base station, and another study reviewed found four times the rate. But these studies just looked at single base station, and we know that cancer rates can vary significantly from one area to the next, so this is probably not very good evidence.

A large study in Bavaria reviewed found no increased risk of cancer near base stations.

The review authors conclude that: "We believe that comprehensive epidemiological studies of long-term mobile phone base station exposure are urgently required to more definitively understand its health impact."


In a review by the WHO, they concluded that :

our review does not indicate an association between any health outcome and radiofrequency electromagnetic field exposure from MPBSs [mobile phone base stations] at levels typically encountered in people’s everyday environment.

The WHO did however note that:

We identified no study that investigated an association between chronic diseases other than cancer and MPBS [mobile phone base station] exposure.

So apart from cancer, it seems nobody has looked at whether there may be other disease clusters around mobile phone base stations.


What complicates the issue is that research on the biological effects of radio wave electromagnetic radiation has found that the effects are both the frequency and power level specific. So certain mobile phone frequencies might promote cancer, whereas other frequencies might not.

 

[Woolie]

I think the idea that mobile phones harm our brains has been thoroughly debunked, many times over.

But there's a bigger problem, and @Hip makes this point well. A lot of bad researchers are motivated to look for links between "modern ills" and poor health. Consumers of news and health articles are attracted to those ideas, they want to read about them. This is because they fit into the "world is going to the dogs" narrative, which we humans are always attracted to, and this is as true today as it was 100 years ago (back then, it was the evils of industrialisation, etc., the dangerous jazz music that is damaging young people, etc.).

But artificial is not always unhealthy and natural is not always healthy. I live in a "natural" country (New Zealand), but don't imagine people are healthier here. The incidence of asthma and allergies here is one of the highest in the world.

Of course, some of the claims could turn out to be true. All I'm saying is we need to be extra suspicious. Any health danger claim that fits into a "societal bad" story requires much more careful scrutiny than a neutral claim.

I reckon the cause of CFS will turn out to be something very natural indeed, and any apparent rise in its incidence is probably an artefact of greater societal awareness of the diagnosis.

 

[Sidereal]

The idea that ME "started" in the 1980s or 1930 is absurd.

 

[erin]

I just think you have to be careful about mistaking the effects of anxiety about electrical devices, with any actual electromagnetic ill health effects that such devices may or may not produce. It can be an anxiety-provoking concept: invisible radiation that permeates the environment, which you often have no control of, and which probably does have ill health effects. That is a recipe for fear and anxiety.

Are you saying these to @Molly98? I am not the one talked about electrical devices. I never had experienced a direct effect from an electrical device and I don't have any anxiety.

I only commented a post of yours mentioning some studies that people can not actually detect the negative effects of electromagnetic radiation and it can be anxiety. My comment was about relying studies in general.

Even when I read about these things, it starts to provoke anxiety. So you have to be aware of that. I find a good approach to dealing with the anxiety is to think to yourself: OK, so what health benefits might the ambient electromagnetic radiation provide? Most influences provide both positive and negative effects (eg, sunlight causes skin cancer, but also provides vitamin D).

I haven't even written the thing yet, I just wrote what I thought and didn't have the brain power to gather my thoughts and write. I don't understand how it provokes anxiety.

And another thing, I don't know how you can safely say "sunlight causes skin cancer", It can cause it to some people. Not everyone who's exposed to sun light extensively get skin cancer. Has it been proved that sun exposure on its own is the sole cause of skin cancer? I doubt it. Maybe you have sun anxiety.

What we really need is more facts. This 2010 review paper, which examined 10 epidemiological studies looking at neurobehavioral effects and cancer in people living at distances of less than 500 meters from cellular base stations, found an increased prevalence of adverse neurobehavioral symptoms and cancer (in 8 out of 10 studies).

In the case of cancer, one of the studies reviewed found triple the rate of cancers in people living near a cellular base station, and another study reviewed found four times the rate. But these studies just looked at single base station, and we know that cancer rates can vary significantly from one area to the next, so this is probably not very good evidence.

A large study in Bavaria reviewed found no increased risk of cancer near base stations.

The review authors conclude that: "We believe that comprehensive epidemiological studies of long-term mobile phone base station exposure are urgently required to more definitively understand its health impact."


In a review by the WHO, they concluded that :


The WHO did however note that:

So apart from cancer, it seems nobody has looked at whether there may be other disease clusters around mobile phone base stations.


What complicates the issue is that research on the biological effects of radio wave electromagnetic radiation has found that the effects are both the frequency and power level specific. So certain mobile phone frequencies might promote cancer, whereas other frequencies might not.

Well, thanks for all the links, I will read them but facts are difficult to know, studies and its results are not always facts, especially that mobile phone technology has not been here for so long to see the results of the studies. It is also big business there will be manipulations of the facts.

All I'm trying to say, it is logical to me that microwave technology causes damage to human cells and studies may say the opposite is not easily change my opinion about this.

 

[erin]

The amount of microwave energy in even an urban area is so low that it can be detected only with fancy technology (a tuned radio antenna + circuitry to amplify the faint signal). There are no antennas, amplifiers or batteries in a human body, time-traveling androids excluded. One is exposed to a massive amount microwave's neighbor: IR, which is produced by a campfire, a toaster, any surface, and the Sun. There's enough IR around that you can feel it: stand in the Sun, in front of a fire, etc. That's not just a few but millions of times more than the microwaves out and about.
We know what IR does: in comfortable amounts it makes you feel warm, in larger amounts it toasts or burns things, such as a slice of bread. Microwaves a step down in energy and wavelength from IR, and like lower frequencies they travel through things denser than air to some degree. Thus a toaster heats at/near the surface of your bread, while a microwave heats about an inch into typical food. If you built an oven using FM radio of similar power instead of microwaves, it would fail to heat food to a useful degree, which is exactly what you'd expect.

Human cell acts like a battery especially the cell membrane; it has sodium and potassium gates. And neurons have the ability to build up a charge like batteries do. Because the amount of microwave energy is low we do not need fancy technology. Our cells can pick up the small amount of microwave energy and the radiation continuously. What's talked about here is not a huge surge and a fry up. The constant waves signalling all the time possibly affecting the cells, considering we have approximately 37 trillion of them.

I'm not sure how useful to compare the microwave soup mentioned here with the sun, fire, toaster, microwave oven and so on. The power of the wave is important but we are not constantly sit in the sun, in front of fire etc. But we are exposed to mobile/ mast radiation, wifi constantly.

 

[Hip]

Are you saying these to @Molly98?

I mean "you" as in "one".

I haven't even written the thing yet, I just wrote what I thought and didn't have the brain power to gather my thoughts and write. I don't understand how it provokes anxiety.

I am not referring to your unwritten post. I am saying that for some people, the idea that they are being exposed to electromagnetic fields raises anxiety, and this in itself can cause symptoms, as was demonstrated by the study I linked to.

And another thing, I don't know how you can safely say "sunlight causes skin cancer", It can cause it to some people. Not everyone who's exposed to sun light extensively get skin cancer.

Wikipedia: "Ultraviolet radiation from sun exposure is the primary environmental cause of skin cancer."

 

[Hip]

I think the idea that mobile phones harm our brains has been thoroughly debunked, many times over.

Mobile phones are one thing, and mobile phone base stations are another. I don't think we can say that one or other does not cause ill health, as the research is not there. The WHO review quoted earlier said that apart from cancer, nobody has looked at whether there may be other disease clusters around mobile phone base stations.

That two studies found a major increase in cancer rates around mobile phone base stations would seem to need further investigation.

 

[erin]

I mean "you" as in "one".




I am not referring to your unwritten post. I am saying that for some people, the idea that they are being exposed to electromagnetic fields raises anxiety, and this in itself can cause symptoms, as was demonstrated by the study I linked to.




Wikipedia: "Ultraviolet radiation from sun exposure is the primary environmental cause of skin cancer."

OK understood now, you quoted my post in that previous post so I assumed wrongly your answer there was directed to me only.

I'm not sure we should take wikipedia so seriously as a source, though the statement above says "primary environmental cause". This suggests sun light on its own does not cause skin cancer. I know so many people exposed to extensive sun light for very long episodes has not got skin cancer. I am one of them actually. However this is not the subject of this thread, so I say no more...

 

[ahmo]

Maybe someone else already linked this, I haven't read all the comments. It's a very visual way to understand the effect of EMFs. scary.

Resonance Beings of Frequency

 

[Hip]

I started a poll that people can vote in which relates to mobile phone base station microwaves and ME/CFS:

POLL: How Far Were You Living From a Mobile Phone Base Station Mast When Your ME/CFS First Appeared?

 

[erin]

Maybe someone else already linked this, I haven't read all the comments. It's a very visual way to understand the effect of EMFs. scary.

Resonance Beings of Frequency

Thank you for this @ahmo, absolute eye opener, everyone who wrote here to this thread should watch it...

 

[HowToEscape?]

The idea that ME "started" in the 1980s or 1930 is absurd.

But don't all diseases enter existence only after they have names?