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could ox bile or proteolytic enzymes cause acid reflux?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by ebethc, Jan 10, 2017.

  1. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    i had some bad acid reflux today, and am wondering what caused it since i rarely have this problem...

    1. I have been taking proteolytic enzymes for a few months when I can afford them... they've been a big help, but I have problems taking them consistently due to the cost... No adverse reactions, up until now..

    2. I just started taking ox bile (super enzymes by now) and had some acid reflux today...

    3. high doses of culturelle to ward of the flu, and give energy... no problems in the past, but taking high doses

    since i haven't been too consistent w the proteolytic enzymes - and have been taking really high doses the past week - I'm not sure if this is the culprit OR if it's the ox bile OR the combo...OR culturelle

    I thought acid reflux was caused by LOW stomach - not increased stomach acid...

    does anyone have any insight about these 2 supplements? which one could cause acid reflux? either, both, neither?
     
  2. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    either or both could be possible.

    I don't get acid reflux but do get gastritis from time to time. I have taken Nutricology Ox Bile, 1/meal for a long time with no problems. At one point I changed to Jarrow Bile Acids Factors and had a terrible gastritis flare. It's hard to work out the equivalence of the products because of the different way they are described but it's possible the Jarrow product was more concentrated.

    I have read of several people describing problems with high doses of proteolytic enzymes.

    Both are likely to be acting as irritants and it is probably dose related.
     
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  3. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Hmm. I just ordered Jarrow Bile Acid Factors because I couldn't tolerate Nutricology Ox Bile. From what you're saying it is likely to be even less tolerable.
     
  4. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    I'd be interested to hear how you go with it. The sensitivity could just be peculiar to me.
     
  5. xrayspex

    xrayspex Senior Member

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    u.s.a.
    ebethc those things could cause it in me--I don't have a gall bladder and so have tried many enzymes since the surgery many years ago and can usually only tolerate a I think it was a little amylase but not the others "ases" I forget them all now--but bad things happen that I won't go into in public if I take them

    I tried ox bile on and off the last year or 2 and same thing---sometimes a tiny amount emptied out of capsule is ok, i haven't played with it religiously enough to figure out if tolerable regular level

    charcoal and DGL licorice and probiotics have been ok and smaller meals and not at night and gluten free helps a lot
     
    ebethc likes this.
  6. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    I think I may have a flu bug afterall... Either that, or the ox bile stimulated some gunk out of my liver / gall bladder... Is that even possible?? I'm really bloated, w bright yellow stools, and aches.. been sleeping a lot
     
  7. xrayspex

    xrayspex Senior Member

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    for me the ox bile could do that--make things pass thru fast lol
    that happened this week when I tried burdock tea, it is known for that
    but flu going around too
     
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  8. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    I started taking ox bile about a week and a half ago. I have 150 mg tablets, started at 1/4 tablet a day and felt energized. A couple times I went up too fast on the dose and had flu-like symptoms similar to yours, achy, tired, bloated (lots of rumbling going on) etc.

    I am now up to 300 mg (2 tabs) a day, after a week and a half. I must say though, as long as I don't go up on the dose too fast, I feel a noticeable increase in energy and clarity of mind. Seems like something good is happening, what it is exactly, I'm not sure. It could be helping to get rid of toxins, helping my SIBO, or something else.
     
    ebethc likes this.
  9. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I think it basically helps you to extract energy from the food you eat.
     
    ebethc likes this.
  10. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    I have the same reaction, more energy and clearer mind... brain fog is one of my most intractable symptoms, so it's a pretty big deal and I feel like I'm on to something..

    I can't figure it out b/c the flu usually lasts a LONG time for me .. about 6-8 wks... comes on very slow, and is very, very slow to leave my body... I'm on day 4, or so of this thing I have now and I'm feeling better, but we'll see when I'm better (which is to day my usual, crap baseline)
     
  11. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    That's a very good point. I'm sure it does help to get energy from food, especially fat and I'm on a high fat low carb diet too.

    I have also read that bile has antimicrobial properties, at least bacteriostatic properties, maybe bactericidal properties too. Kills bacteria directly = (bactericidal) and slows their ability to grow and reproduce = (bacteriostatic).
     
  12. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    Could you give us an update when you have a better idea on what is causing your symptoms? I am also very curious to weather it's the ox bile or the flu causing your symptoms. If it is the ox bile, you might want to lower the dose, or take it every 2-3 days or so. Whatever it is, I hope it passes soon.:)
     
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  13. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    I'm not sure if I'll know what it was... One of the many frustrating things about this illness; I can't always (usually?) reverse engineer problems... I stumbled on antivirals a couple of years ago after reading about successes here on PR; helped a non-stop "flu" or EBV flare 2 winters ago

    However, I can say that when I get the flu, one of the worst parts is that it lasts a LONG time... It comes on slow, and takes forever to leave, and often, just when I think I'm getting better, I have a little relapse, then I start improving for good... It's a specific pattern and this time that lasts up 6-8 wks; but this time the whole illness was <1wk ! Is that b/c I'm getting stronger & finding the right tools OR b/c it's not the flu at all, but some (non-flu) stomach infection? who knows

    things I did differently this time (in addition to just discovering Ox Bile):
    - took high doses of culturelle, which has proven immune & anti-immunity benefits
    - took high doses of (high quality) olive leaf extract
    - took high doses of vitamin d
    - took high doses of zinc

    based on my experience... 1) focus on gut & viruses, 2) find the right gut/remedies for you...
     
  14. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    I have the same frustration very often, trying to figure out what is causing symptoms or a flare. My symptoms change so often, for what seems to be no reason at all sometimes, it's crazy! I have definitely been experiencing die-off from the ox bile I am taking.

    The kind of die-off I have been having though is different from what I usually have. It's not nearly as intense and the die-off symptoms come and go, instead of lasting for 2-3 days and passing. I do feel better overall taking it though, so I will see how this goes over time.

    That use to happen with me too. I use to get 6-8 colds and flu's a year. The worst part of the flu would be over in about 7-10 days, but it would take me 2-3 weeks or so to start to feel like I did before I got it. I think the reason my colds and flu's don't last more than about a 5-7 days now is because my immune system is stronger.

    I started taking colostrum a little over a year ago and even at a dose of only 500mg a day, I wasn't catching any colds or flu's for months at a time. I was only sick this last year taking colostrum, 3 times instead of 6-8! Amazing!

    So now I take 2,400mg a day of colostrum, both to keep my immune system up and also to help heal a leaky gut. I think healing the gut is crucial to changing the course of this illness.
     
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  15. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    have you heard that ppl w cfs do NOT get colds/flus? this is confusing b/c I'm like you - I get every cold/flu that's going around, plus it's hard to tell if it's an EBV flare, or just the effects of my generally crappy immune system..

    good to hear.... finding a "breakthough" supplement that seems to make your baseline vitality stronger (vs ameliorate symptoms) is such a good feeling... so encouraging... For me, it's been relatively recent... I've had a good, long rest, which for me is key... Nothing will work when I'm just so wiped out... Then I can rebuild, and all the gut & viral stuff that I mentioned above has been so very good for me (so true re leaky gut & SIBO).. like the colostrum for you, the gut/viral stuff has been a breakthrough.. Colostrum did nothing for me... It's one of those things that "on paper" seems like it would be great for me, but did nothing... (Same w turmeric) .. I still have a bottle and it's pricey so maybe I'll try it again in a few months.. Doing the right thing at the right time is key..
     
  16. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    I have heard of people with cfs hardly ever catching colds. I can't say that I understand it either. It seems to have something to do with the th1/th2 arms of the immune system. If the th1 arm of the immune system is strong, it should help prevent many colds and flu's, because it's the first line of defense against viruses. Many people with cfs have a th2 dominant immune system though.:confused:

    I'm pretty sure I have a th2 dominant immune system (or did before the colostrum), that's why I caught so many colds and flu's. What I'm trying to do is treat what is causing my immune system dysfunction. I have come to believe, after 10 years of reading, research and aggressively trying many protocols that the cause of my cfs is in my gut.

    I have taken at least 30-40 courses of antibiotics in my life and had a diet that was basically without fresh fruits and vegetables, therefore no prebiotics, up until a few years ago.

    I had a comprehensive digestive stool analysis done (CDSA) several years ago, which found SEVERE dysbiosis as well as an overgrowth of a pathogenic bacteria called Pseudomonas Aeruginosa. The test I did measured dysbiosis on a scale from 0-20, 20 being the worst they could measure, mine was an 18 out of 20!!

    So I am focused on getting rid of the dysbiosis and leaky gut but it is very slow going because of the die-off from the Sibo/dysbiosis. It seems like you are treating EBV or other viruses and having some success with it? Do you have a theory as to the cause of your cfs?
     
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  17. nandixon

    nandixon Senior Member

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    Have you had a chance to try the Jarrow yet?

    Edit: I posted an idea here about possibly enhancing the potentially favorable effect of conjugated bile acids in ME/CFS.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2017
  18. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    No, it got caught in customs. But @mariovitali has been using it for a while.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2017
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  19. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    I've been thinking about trying TUDCA instead. It's just so damned expensive.
     
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  20. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    I've been taking ox bile for about 3 weeks now. I have noticed a definite increase in energy, clarity of mind, less PEM and when I do get some PEM, it's much milder and doesn't last nearly as long as it use to before I started the ox bile. I have taken this same ox bile before, at a higher dose and didn't notice any benefits.

    This time though, I am on a low carb diet and it seems to make all the difference in how much it helps. I am taking a very low dose, only 262mg a day, but it really is making a big difference.

    I am seeing and feeling improvements week to week. As I said though, I have been on a low carb diet (the specific carbohydrate diet) for 8 months and I think that is a big part of why I am getting such good results.

    I buy tablets from Swansons Vitamins and cut them up into quarters so I can slowly increase the dose.
     
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