Could my Methyl B vitamins have caused my symptoms?

[Learner1]

You probably haven't damaged anything by overmethylating. Just take it a step at a time. You are probably just out of balance with too few if some nutrients and bottlenecks of others.

Have you done a 23andme test? Knowing your genetics may provide some useful clues. We are all different and some of us have some genetic setups that make our needs unique, I.e. the great advice for someone else may be bad for you. Or at least need to be tweaked...

Also, take the time to learn about methylation. Understanding the dynamics will help you manage things better. It dies many important tasks and happens in all your cells, so well worth the investment of energy.

Look at some different resources. You can Google Ben Lynch, Amy Yasko, or Heartfixer and methylation. BeyondMTHFR has some good info, too. Also, Google Rich van Konynberg Sweden 2011 for a couple of good videos and PowerPoint slides and explanation if the methylation block and CFS.

This knowledge has enriched the discussion I have with my doctor, increased thechekp I get, and help me figure out when things are going sideways to make midcourse corrections... for example, when I crash, get anxious, depressed, irritable, or start smelling like sulfur, I know what to do now...and I have confidence in the dynamics of the process.

Good luck to you...

 

[Konflict]

Yea I really don't know know anything about it....didn't even know it existed until I figured out how powerful certain B vitamins can be. Just wish I could figure this out. I was pretty much a healthy person (besides some low T and mild brain fog) before taking this stuff.

Maybe since I activated methylation my body tried detoxing some heavy metal toxin that's wreaking havoc now? I have tons of the side effects of mercury toxicity. I'm scared I caused permanent damage I will never reverse :/

 

[Learner1]

Yes, you likely mobilized toxins ...

We live in a toxic world, and everyone is toxic to some degree. Those of us who are sick are likely more toxic than the "healthy" people around us.

I happen to have built up an extraordinary level of toxicity, which led to my being diagnosed with stage 3 cancer, just when I thought I was living as healthy as I could and in the best shape of my life at 52 (and had already chelated mercury, not once, but twice, before and after having dental fillings removed).

Understanding that you have toxicity is the first step.

70% of our toxicity comes from food we eat and the best way to detox is to not eat toxins to begin with.

Eat organic as much as possible, and eat a lot of vegetables, as the fiber will help you get rid of toxins through your feces, without reabsorbng them through your intestines. Ensure the water you drink is clean, and be alert to chemicals you breathe and what you put on your skin.

You may want to get a Doctors Data Urine Heavy Metals test to figure out what's there. Make sure to use a couple of chelators beforehand, as different chelators mobilize different toxins.

Chelators have names like ALA, EDTA, DMSA, and DMPS. Chlorella works too.

Once you know, you can come up with a game plan, to execute over a couple of years.

Toxins get deposited in your liver, your fat, your bones, and your brain. They also get deposited in your mitochondria, blocking energy production.

The trick is to set up what I think of as a bucket brigade, where toxins are mobilized, and escorted through several processes to get out if you. If one bucket holder stop working, the toxins may get dumped somewhere in your body (like your brain??) and that's when bad things happen.

Or, think of clearing out a traffic jam on the freeway... it unjams from one end to the other. If you're in a car at the back, you're going to have to wait for the cars in front to move first and then the next ones, etc.

So, you set up this system to get stuff out. Make sure your gut, your liver, and gallbladder work well, as they're the machinery that gets things done. Eat nutritious food with detox supporting nutrients, and keep it moving through you.

Next, work on methylation and other detox processes. You want to be making and recycling glutathione.

It's helpful to understand your genetics, because, if you're like me, you may have some bottlenecks that need to be unstuck, and a scattershot approach isn't efficient - you've already tried that.

The things that drive detoxing are amino acids and vitamin B12, folate, B6, B2, and B1, and magnesium. Other nutrients, like antioxidants and liver support, help, too.

I did a lot of the above over time and git rid of the mercury and most of the platinum from moly chemotherapy drugs. I thought I was doing well, but was still tired.

My naturopath thought I was still toxic, so gave me an alpha lipoic acid polymer, PolyMVA, which stopped me cold. It mobilized arsenic, and then lead, with accompanying symptoms. Turns out our bodies have a sequence in getting rid of metals and they do it one at a time, mostly.

ALA is the one thing that gets metals out of our mitochondria. It can also cross the blog brain barrier, so you don't want to be taking stuff out of the rest of your body and depositing in your brain.

These are some of the high points. There's a lot to learn.

Go ahead and take your Bs for now and eat your vegetables. They'll help with every day detox. Then, learn about the other topics and gradually implement them, ideally with the help of a functional medicine doctor.

I had cancer, both my parents have had it, and other family members have toxicity problems, so this is essential to my survival. For others it's not as big a deal - you'll need to decide for yourself.

Chelating takes time, patience, and commitment. It definitely cause damage if not done right, so don't go off on some fad detox program. There are a lot if ways to do it, faster or more slowly, depending on what you're toxic with.

Probably more than you wanted to know, but you dipped your toe into an ocean, best to know where you are.

Best wishes....

 

[Konflict]

Ugh I feel like I'm a dead man walking after taking this poison.....my brain fog is so bad.

Someone mentioned some testing I can do, so there are indeed DNA mutation and gene tests I can take to see which things I've messed up? Again I really know zero about all this.

 

[Learner1]

You can do a 23andme test, a consumer genetics test. You can sign up for about $200 on their website. They ship you a box with a test tube, you send it back, and 3-6 weeks later, they put the results online.

The next step is to get it interpreted. You download the "raw data" zip file, and there are several tools that will list out which SNPs you have on various genes, with various amounts of interpretation. Once you ate ready, come back and ask, and you'll get lots of advice.

Your genes will give you an idea of where you're likely to have bottlenecks in various processes. But things you're exposed to in your environment can impact how your genes behave, for good or bad.

There are other tests, like the Genova Diagnosis NutrEval test that can tell you what your nutrient status is. It could show a buildup of something that can't be used properly due to a bottleneck, or a deficiency of something essential to the function of a process.

You can look on their website to find a doctor who can run the test. Results take 3-4 weeks.

But you sound miserable now. One thing you might try is 3-6g of Meriva, or a similar high quality curcumin product, daily. It's worked for me when my methylation isn't getting the job done and I gave something toxic stuck.

You could also try glutathione. Thorne has one, or there's Quicksilver liposomal glutathione. Take it twice a day, as it doesn't last long. Ideally, you want to be making glutathione, but since you seem to be having trouble doing so, this is a bandaid until you get it straightened out

Make sure you're drinking water, eating protein, and digesting properly, too, worth digestive enzymes, if need be.

Find a good provider to help you. You'll need the help of s good one to help you with the above. You'll want a functional medicine doctor, one familiar with methylation and feminine and runs the NutrEval test. Could be an MD, ND, DC, or DO.

 

[Konflict]

I think the FDA needs to place labels on methyl B vitamins letting people who are unaware it can alter you genes and DNA.

I truly feel like I will die from this.....how in one month do I develop osteoarthritis, total body dehydration, incurable insomnia, intractable constipation, unbearable fatigue, brain fog, depression and anxiety? I mean I would understand if this developed over years, but not to a healthy 30 year old male in his prime in just a matter of weeks. This is such bullshit...I already let my mom know when I die from this to sue the Solgar and Thorne brands for selling this lethal shit.

I went from a totally healthy individual who could workout 3-5 times a week to bed ridden and not being able to move, let alone sit in any position without feeling physical pain. Idk how you guys take this stuff....

I mean I know I sound like I'm probably over exaggerating with these symptoms and how fast they developed, but I'm being 100% serious and logical about it. I mean all my joints feel unstable, my neck and spine feel dried out, taking in sodium and potassium doesn't help, I'm peeing every 30 mins whether I drink or not....it's like I mutation my genes that allow me to absorb electrolytes, or blocked my hormone receptors (still think estrogen as it holds sodium), I feel totally done for.

 

[Konflict]

I'm on a free low income medical insurance so I have limited funds and choice to go to who I want in terms of health care. But the ND I'm seeing understands methylation, but idk how in depth like each mutation or gene or number or whatever. I really don't understand any of it myself....I'm just hoping once I can get these tests done I can get some answers.

It's so crazy that there's a simple vitamin that's over the counter that lets you play "God" with yourself.....ludacris FDA thinking

 

[Learner1]

I'm on a free low income medical insurance so I have limited funds and choice to go to who I want in terms of health care. But the ND I'm seeing understands methylation, but idk how in depth like each mutation or gene or number or whatever. I really don't understand any of it myself....I'm just hoping once I can get these tests done I can get some answers.

It's so crazy that there's a simple vitamin that's over the counter that lets you play "God" with yourself.....ludacris FDA thinking

Best to educate yourself then, so you can make wise choices with your limited resources.

I find it odd that the FDA really has no answers for us...and is frequently standing in our way...

 

[joeblow604]

I think the FDA needs to place labels on methyl B vitamins letting people who are unaware it can alter you genes and DNA.

I truly feel like I will die from this.....how in one month do I develop osteoarthritis, total body dehydration, incurable insomnia, intractable constipation, unbearable fatigue, brain fog, depression and anxiety? I mean I would understand if this developed over years, but not to a healthy 30 year old male in his prime in just a matter of weeks. This is such bullshit...I already let my mom know when I die from this to sue the Solgar and Thorne brands for selling this lethal shit.

I went from a totally healthy individual who could workout 3-5 times a week to bed ridden and not being able to move, let alone sit in any position without feeling physical pain. Idk how you guys take this stuff....

I mean I know I sound like I'm probably over exaggerating with these symptoms and how fast they developed, but I'm being 100% serious and logical about it. I mean all my joints feel unstable, my neck and spine feel dried out, taking in sodium and potassium doesn't help, I'm peeing every 30 mins whether I drink or not....it's like I mutation my genes that allow me to absorb electrolytes, or blocked my hormone receptors (still think estrogen as it holds sodium), I feel totally done for.

I am not sure if your still on the paleo diet. If so that could be some of your issue.

The symptoms you described here I get as a result of the paleo diet alone. For me I made no connection to vitamins as it was one of my earliest symptoms when getting ME. I hadn't started any supplementing yet.

When I tried the diet about a year into the illness it really brought it out. Nothing soothed the pain. Was up to 12 advil a day and heat pads. The dehydration at times it felt like drinking air. Nothing quenched the thirst. Just to see I checked and was drinking 4l or water a day and peeing the same. Buzzing in ears at night.

So far found no way to eat paleo fully. When I first went off the diet the symptoms went away pretty quick, a few days. I have trouble also eating sugar, fruit or grains but found that if I eat a little oatmeal or granola the body seems to regulate better, and those symptoms mostly gone. My guess is their providing some stable sugar. So some kind of sugar, insulin and sodium connection

The vitamins could be playing a part but what you described sounds like what I get from going paleo. Best of luck...

 

[Konflict]

No I stopped the paleo diet about a week into crashing hard....thought maybe I had burned out my adrenal glands, but idk if symptoms would keep progressing the way they are if it was adrenals alone?

I know I had noticed some changes when I took the methyl Bs like fat loss, trimmer body, mild insomnia, mild constipation, thinner dryer skin. But after the crash during diet everything got so much worse and keeps worsening.

I've recently upped my electrolytes intake, and going to eat nothing but whole fresh organic foods and lean meats, nuts, seeds, beans, probiotic yogurt.

I'm just praying I didn't block off anything during my methylation period....read someone once blocked his estrogen receptors when he overmethylated and eventually died after about a year. I have many symptoms of low estrogen from this and have borderline low estrogen on bloodwork.

 

[Learner1]

Just to be clear, a Paleo Diet doesn't contain dairy, grains, legumes, sugar, or processed foods.

It does contain a lot of vegetables, animal protein (eggs, meat, fish), nuts and seeds, all organic, wild, etc. Proportions of macronutrients can vary widely.

Not being able to tolerate it could mean you have digestive problems (low stomach acid, lack of digestive enzymes, imbalanced microbiome - SIBO, candida, etc.), food intolerance or allergies, or you're inadvertently eating something toxic.

 

[Gondwanaland]

It does contain a lot of vegetables, animal protein (eggs, meat, fish), nuts and seeds, all organic, wild, etc. Proportions of macronutrients can vary widely.

Not being able to tolerate it could mean you have digestive problems (low stomach acid, lack of digestive enzymes, imbalanced microbiome - SIBO, candida, etc.), food intolerance or allergies, or you're inadvertently eating something toxic.

The paleo diet is very progesterogenic and diuretic (not to mention the low carb version), I had to reintroduce rice, beans, quinoa, amaranth, teff in order to get more PABA, copper, manganese and starch. Unfortunately I can't digest wheat, rye or oats, but eating rye makes my gut paradoxically very healthy.

 

[Konflict]

Just to be clear, a Paleo Diet doesn't contain dairy, grains, legumes, sugar, or processed foods.

It does contain a lot of vegetables, animal protein (eggs, meat, fish), nuts and seeds, all organic, wild, etc. Proportions of macronutrients can vary widely.

Not being able to tolerate it could mean you have digestive problems (low stomach acid, lack of digestive enzymes, imbalanced microbiome - SIBO, candida, etc.), food intolerance or allergies, or you're inadvertently eating something toxic.

Yea I was eating mostly just meats and salad at the time......probably too much omega 6 fats for sure, 150g plus of fat and protein during that diet.

Now I'm just going for a healthy, nutrient packed diet with a lot of electrolytes for awhile. Could I possibly just have burned out my adrenals?

 

[Konflict]

The paleo diet is very progesterogenic and diuretic (not to mention the low carb version), I had to reintroduce rice, beans, quinoa, amaranth, teff in order to get more PABA, copper, manganese and starch. Unfortunately I can't digest wheat, rye or oats, but eating rye makes my gut paradoxically very healthy.

Maybe that's why I lost so much fat and water weight on the diet while I was on it,but I still continue to get leaner and have horrific sides while off any diet.

I still believe I may have messed up my estrogen receptors, after overmethylating I had my testosterone measured, and I also had it measured a week after my "crash" I'm January, and my testosterone raised a good amount. Maybe I messed up my Aromatase enzyme, or just blocked my estrogen receptors, or simply crashed my adrenals....but if I had crashed my adrenals idk how my T levels would raise?

 

[Learner1]

First, you might want to look into the Perfect Health Diet, by Paul Jaminet, which is a bit higher in carbs. The message is to find a good macro nutrient ratio that works for you.

One can do Paleo with 10% carbs, 10% protein and 80% fat all the way to 55% carbs, 35% protein, and 10% fat. There's a lot of range in the middle, and we may vary in what we need.

My labs recommend significant amino acids, supported by recent CFS research, but I still only need about 22% protein. I've varied the amount of fat and carbs with this, going from 45% carbs down to 15% while fat has gone from around 33% fat up to 67%. I went Keto recently, so dropped my protein and carbs slightly and raised fat.

There's some very interesting discussion on Jaminets site on how people have manipulated the ratios and had dramatic differences in their labs.

Now for the hormones...

Cholesterol is the parent of our sex hormones. If I've done it correctly, here's a link to a diagram of how it works.

https://goo.gl/images/jO5FE4

I had uterine cancer and total hysterectomy, which threw me into menopause, and have crashed adrenals, so have had the luxury of taking and experimenting with all the metabolites.

I currently take pregnenolone, progesterone, hydrocortisone, DHEA, testosterone, and estriol, but have varied amounts of each over the past 2 years.

It's not straightforward, and the unexpected can happen, resulting in screwed up hormones.

My cholesterol has run low, even on a higher fat diet, running between 143 and 165.

I supplement progesterone, as it's protective against my cancer, but have seen no evidence that my diet is progesteronic, as gondawaland mentioned.

If I don't supplement hydrocortisone, DHEA, and testosterone, they're on the floor. If I do it well, everything is optimized. if not, everything wants to make a lot of estradiol, which can promote my cancer, along with making me feel bloated, gain weight, and have other unpleasant estrogen symptoms.

I recently tried upping pregnenolone, which has been shown to help CNS, and all hell broke loose. Amazingly, it all went to estradiol, and my DHEA and testosterone dropped. It took 2 months to rebalance everything.

I do have COMT and CYP1B1 SNPs that could confound this picture, but my takeaway is that I have the utmost respect for hormones and it's like balancing a lot of spinning plates.

First, we need to eat and properly digest healthy fats. Then, we need to metabolize them to make hormones. Some of us don't do it properly, for whatever reason.

My doctor and I have been surprised several times in this process. The DUTCH test, dried urine test of comprehensive hormones, has been an invaluable tool in recalibrating, far better than any LabCorp test we've run.

I'd relook at eating sensible proportions of macronutrients within a Paleo Diet. Make sure you're digesting fat. Then do a DUTCH test and adjust. And look through the commentary on Jaminets website.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I supplement progesterone, as it's protective against my cancer, but have seen no evidence that my diet is progesteronic, as gondawaland mentioned.

Personally I have found that some paleo staple foods have strong anti-estrogenic/progesterogenic/pro-thyroid) effects, and I must avoid them:

• eggs (choline accelerates estrogen breakdown, vit A is progesterogenic/pro-thyroid @jjxx )
• Brazil nuts (progesterogenic/pro-thyroid)
• chia seeds (progesterogenic/pro-thyroid)
• coconut oil, butter (pro-thyroid, probably progesterogenic/anti-estrogenic)
• ....

I have taken coumadin a few years ago and this killed my K2 (which modulates estrogen & testosterone), and I have been repeatedly prescribed progesterone by the several drs I saw. So I think our personal histories play a role just as important (or even more) as our SNPs. A combo of low carb + methylation supps drove me into hyperthyroidism and probably metabolic acidosis. I went to the ER 3x and all they could test was coagulation factors and dismiss me as if I was having a panic attack (with a body temperatue below 35°C / 95F???)

 

[Learner1]

So I think our personal histories play a role just as important (or even more) as our SNPs

It's both environment and SNPs.

Where are you getting the progesteronic info?

My experience has been that our pathways don't work evenly, or even the same from person to person due to our SNPs and environmental factors.

I eat all those foods and they haven't raised my progesterone. And it doesn't take much to have all my hormones metabolize to estradiol and get stuck.

Methylation supplements and Paleo diets are both great tools, when individualized to our SNPs, toxicities, and many other environmental factors. I'd hate to see them get a bad reputation when people haven't individualized them.

 

[Mary]

@Konflict - I think it's very likely that the methylation supplements caused your potassium levels to tank badly. This is very common. Low potassium induced by methylfolate caused severe fatigue for me. Fortunately, I had read Freddd's posts about methylation where he describes this phenomenon and it was easy to remedy.

Read these posts: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/warning-low-potassium-is-dangerous.14410/
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ded-in-methylation-treatmt.18670/#post-291410

Richvank describes how increasing methylation causes cells to divide more rapidly, increasing the need for potassium, which can induce a deficiency. It can happen quite rapidly, often within 2 or 3 days of starting the supplements. Everyone who takes methylation supplements should read about this.

I had already been taking Mb12 for years but when I started methylfolate 6 or 7 years ago, it gave me an initial boost of energy and then within about 2 days I was hit by severe fatigue. I was on the lookout for low potassium symptoms so started taking potassium, titrating up to 1000 mg in a couple of days and the symptoms abated. I eventually learned I needed to take this all the time, which I have done ever since. People with ME/CFS tend to have low intracellular potassium, despite blood work showing normal levels, as was in my case.

One way which may help to see if low potassium is a problem for you is to eat or drink some high potassium foods. One banana most likely will not be enough. I always suggest people try drinking several glasses of low-sodium V8 throughout the day - it's high in potassium and low in calories and sugar - and see if you improve. It might take a couple of days but I think you would see results rather quickly if it was going to help. And then if it does, you can decide what to do from there, whether to add a potassium supplement regularly. I take 800 - 1000 mg potassium gluconate daily in divided doses) plus drink low-sodium V8 - but we're all different - some people need more, some less. It is important to not take a large dose of potassium supplement all at once as your body has to adjust to it.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Where are you getting the progesteronic info?

From google for instance

 

[Konflict]

I truly think I silenced my estrogen receptor genes when I methylated.....I have all the signs of low estrogen, and my total and free T both went up when I crashed. That isn't possible if it's just adrenal fatigue......correct?

I have no other explanations for this. Why else would all my joints start becoming unstable, popping, hurting, and CONTINUE to progress? Is it possible to silence the estrogen receptor genes when taking methyl Bs?