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Could I Have Overdosed on B12?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by MargUK, Jul 11, 2017.

  1. MargUK

    MargUK

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    After reading through a thread on B12, I decided to try the Bluebonnet B12 oil (5000 mcg). I put a drop under my tongue just before my teatime meal every evening and certainly didn't feel any worse after several days of using it. Further reading made me realise it was probably pointless taking it on its own and I needed other B vitamins for it to work properly. B1 and B2 stuck in my head so next time I was in ASDA I had a look at their vitamins and came across a B complex that looked right for the job so decided to try it.

    The ingredients of each tablet are:

    Thiamin (B1) 1.1 mg
    Riboflavin (B2) 1.4 mg
    Niacin 16 mg NE
    Vitamin B6 1.4 mg
    Folic Acid 200 ug
    Vitamin B12 2.5 ug
    Biotin 50 ug
    Pantothenic acid 6 mg

    That was on the 27th June I started taking both. I would have been taking the B12 oil for approximately around 10-12 days by this point.

    On the 4th July (Tuesday) I had an entirely 'normal' day - able to stay up all day, do entirely normal stuff, with normal energy and still be okay at night. I was really excited wondering if I'd finally found something which was making a difference!

    That night I woke feeling all shivery and sweaty with a temperature and a feeling of general yukkiness. I thought I'd picked up a bug. Next day was the same and after eating a tub of fruity cous cous for tea, I got the distinct impression it had been a bad idea then remembered it had sat in the boot of my daughter's car for a couple of hours before it had made it into my fridge!! By Saturday when I was still feeling really awful and very sick I took 2 laxatives, determined to get rid of whatever was sitting like a lead weight in the pit of my stomach. That helped a little bit but when, on Monday morning, I was still having loose motions (sorry for TMI), having to force every bit of food down and couldn't even get dressed for my brother, Ian, coming to visit me, I started to think something else must be going on.

    Because I'd really tried to stay up in order to get dressed for him, I came on here to try and wake myself up and the first new post was about B12. Suddenly a light bulb went on! Had I been MAKING myself ill I wondered? I remembered a similar kind of occurrence when I doubled my dose of Vitamin D and after about 10 days, felt really ill. Returning to the normal dose sorted things out.

    Although I had to give in and go back to bed before Ian arrived, I was in a much more hopeful mood than first thing and he was spared me breaking down in hopeless tears, instead just wiping away a few which escaped as I hugged him, so pleased to see him!

    My question is - could this be feasible? And also - is it possible for the B12 oil to work on its own or have I picked that bit of info up incorrectly?
     
  2. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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    an increase on vit D can generate symptoms like that (by overdriving the immune system)
    Yes you can overdose in b12 (mostly on shots since we are supposed to pee the excess but some plp don't)
    a third option is over methylation. Could be that the increase in b12 drove you into over methylation (you can take I always forget b1 or b2 to go back to normal) you have to google it. so always increase b12 slowly.
     
  3. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    Rather than overdosing on B12 you may have underdosed on folate.

    By taking a moderate dose of B12 plus various B vitamins you may have stimulated previously sluggish metabolic pathways which increased demand for particular nutrients beyond the point your body could supply them.

    Much has been written on PR about problems associated with B12/folate supplements which are often very potent and which many people are sensitive to.

    Freddd, who developed the active B12 protocol, has described particular problems with increased demand for folate and potassium, and more recently for trace minerals. He has characterised it as refeeding syndrome, which could be a reasonable description of the phenomenon.

    Many people have found that this does apply to them, though of course not all. It is worth considering.

    I made a post here about B12 supplementation which canvasses some of the issues.

    A final point to consider is the folic acid in the B complex. Some people can cope with folic acid without problem but for others it is problematic.

    Everyone processes folic acid very slowly (it is an articifial substance not found in nature) and some people do it extremely slowly. Folic acid can then accumulate and it inhibits several enzymes in the folate cycle - in other words it could exacerbate problems by slowing down the folate cycle.
     
  4. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    @MargUK - I've never heard of B12 causing those symptoms, fever, shivering, sick, screwed up digestive tract. Also you're taking an extremely low dose - 1 drop. 5000 mcg. is a high dose, but you're not taking 5000 mcg. Actually I take two 5000 mcg. doses a day and do well with that. Though that is way too much for many people - we're all different. So I'm not recommending that you take what I take.

    Excess B12 can cause problems but generally I think they have to do with overmethylation, resulting often in anxiety and nervousness and so on.

    I've never heard of the other B vitamins causing your symptoms either. You very well could have just caught a bug.

    I could be wrong of course. One way to find out is to stop the supplements and see if you improve. But since you did have one quite good day, I think it's worth trying them again.

    Your B complex is problematic because it does have folic acid. Folic is a synthetic form of folate and many people have trouble converting it to folate, the form useable by the body. Folic acid can actually cause a folate deficiency because it competes for absorption with folate.

    So you might be better off with a B complex that has folate instead of folic acid, such as Jarrow B Right (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jarrows-B-...qid=1499817559&sr=8-1&keywords=jarrow b right
     
  5. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    I've certainly had feverishness, nausea and digestive upset from too little folate in the context of B12 dosage.
     
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  6. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Okay, I've never heard of that before but it's good to know. It very well could be then the source of her problems.
     
  7. PinkPanda

    PinkPanda Senior Member

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    Bluebonnet oil is methylcobalamin right? Many people have some bad reactions to high dose methylb12 and folate. I don't tolerate methylb12 alone that well either. I have the best experience with hydroxocobalamin (sublingual or in some form that bypasses the intrinsic factor).

    Hydroxocobalamin can be converted to methyl-, and adenosylcobalamin and one problem with taking methylcobalamin and other b vitamins could be that you have too little cobalamin left for conversion to adenosylb12. So I don't think overdose is the problem but you may not be tolerating the form well.
    Hydroxocobalamin can also bind to toxins.

    Methylcobalamin had a stronger initial effect for me but also caused more problems later on, while hydroxocobalamin has a smaller but more sustainable effect. You could also be intolerant to folic acid of course, it's not a folate form that's found naturally in foods and can cause problems.
     
  8. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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    I can relate to some of the symptoms you describe @MargUK when I first started my methylation regime or when I increased doseages it caused upset stomach. I know when I've got too little folate because I get nausea/symptoms like acid indigestion and mouth ulcers.

    I take methyl folate separately and in a b right b complex, although like you I started with a lower dose b complex (from Tesco rather than Asda ). You can get the former on Amazon in the uk.

    It doesn't seem like over methylation from your description but we are all different in how we seem to respond.

    I agree with @Mary , your dose of b12 seems low. I think it's best to get a reasonable b12 dose established first before slowly increasing folate. It's also a good idea to split the dose of folate to 3 times a day. I started on 200 mcg and worked up to 1200mcg...but this took me 6-12 months to do. Tesco do two sorts of b complex a low dose and a high strength. It might be worth persevering with these lower dose b complexes first and building up before you go on to the stronger b right?. I think it was Fredd that noticed that the effects of folate only last up to 4 hrs. i would also consider taking a multivitamin and mineral daily for some of the other elements that you may need (manganese, iodine, copper etc)

    A lot of this is experimentation. You may have b12 reserves in your liver or you may be depleted. You may also use up what you supplement quite quickly if you can walk/be moderately active. Alcohol also diminishes b12 quite quickly. Basically there are a lot of things that can vary your active b12 without even considering any genetic predispositions or metabolic issues to do with the illness. It is likely that you will go through a few months of adjustment each time you make a change to the regime. I belive it takes a year of supplementing b12 at the right dose to build up liver reserves of b12 if it's been completely depleted? I am hoping that when I get to this point that things will be a little less variable.
     
  9. MargUK

    MargUK

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    Thanks for all your replies - I'm a bit confused by the 'low dose' bit though? Bluebonnet B12 oil has 5000 mcg in each drop and that seemed to be what some of you were advocating? Or did you think I had stopped the oil when I started the B complex tablet?

    I'm certainly starting to feel better now that I've stopped taking both and my appetite is slowly returning. But I'm still confused as to whether it's ok to take the oil on its own as I was doing originally? Will it be effective on its own?

    Sorry I haven't replied individually - I'm a bit knackered today and trying to type from my phone in bed - with a big lump of cat sitting on top of me! Doesn't help.
     
  10. PinkPanda

    PinkPanda Senior Member

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    If you tolerate the oil on its own, I think then you can take it. Like I said hydroxoB12 might be an alternative, if you have problems.
    Methylb12 alone will probably be less effective for your energy than combined with a b complex, but I had the experience that b vitamins can be tricky. Some help some don't and then you have everything mixed up in a b complex and folic acid and it's hard to tell what is having what effect.
    You could try the b complex without folic acid that Mary named and see if you tolerate that better.

    If you feel you also don't have good reactions to that, I would rather go careful with the things I know I tolerate, instead of taking something that pushes your energy and then later makes you feel worse.
    And then maybe add single vitamins you want to try so you can judge the effect better.
     
  11. MargUK

    MargUK

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    Thanks @PinkPanda - I'll maybe reintroduce the oil at some point then. I agree I think it's far better if poss to take things singly then you have a better idea of what's causing what!
     
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  12. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Bluebonnet has 5000 mcg in each full dropper - 1 ml. - not each drop. Did you mean you took one drop, or a full dropper? here's a big difference.
     
  13. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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    That was my assumption as well from your comment I assumed 1 drop (0.02ml) as oppose to 1 dropper (1ml).

    If that is the case then a drop would give one 50th of a dose or 100mcg of methylCbl instead of 5000mcg
     
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  14. MargUK

    MargUK

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    I apologise for the late reply - I really haven't been well at all but feel better today. I was very confused by this measurement business @Mary and @arewenearlythereyet but now that I've had a proper look at the dropper I can see the 1 ml measurement and see what you mean. Yes it was only a drop I was having so nowhere near the 5000 mpg!

    The trouble is I've been completely shaken by how ill I was these past 3 weeks and can't believe just trying something out like that could have such a nasty effect - especially now that I know I was hardly taking any! Yesterday morning I had a complete meltdown - I just couldn't keep trying to be strong and push through it any longer when I felt so ill. I sobbed for hours which didn't make me feel any better - just more choked up and miserable! I wondered if it was PEM but all I'd done the previous day was a tiny bit of hoovering and a few hours of typing at the computer (I'm typing up old diary entries which I've written longhand so it was literally just copy typing) and I'd been in bed until 3 p.m. so it's not as if I was on the go the whole day. None of it seemed to make any sense.

    Today I feel slightly better thank God - I was supposed to be at a DWP assessment at 1 p.m. but just couldn't face it by myself (my daughter was supposed to be coming with me but couldn't get childcare) so I cancelled it.

    I would really like to try the B12 again but am now terrified to do so! Do you think I'd be safe enough once I've had a few consistent days of feeling better to give it another go and start off with 0.5 ml to begin with? Or should I just leave it alone in case the same thing happens again? Does it take a while to build up in your system? (i.e. would any negative effect be felt pretty much straight away or not until a few days later?).

    Thanks for your help!
     
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  15. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

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    Hi @MargUK

    Sounds like you have a lot on your plate at the moment. It is possible that taking the B12 coincided with PEM by coincidence, but it's worth being cautious.

    The thing that is most likely to floor you is the folate or some of the other bvutamins in the complex. So I would slowly build up your b12 dose gradually over at least 8 weeks with a general multivitamin/ multi mineral and a reasonably strong b complex. Then gradually increase your bluebonnet on top. (Going low and slow). Only once you feel confident with the b12 is it worth playing around with folate levels. This may take a week or 8 weeks, we all seem to respond slightly differently.

    I started with oral supplements (Tesco strong b vit) to 2x daily, went on to sublingual methyl b12 (1000 mcg) with 400 mcg methyl folate and then upped the methyl b12 to 10000mcg over 6 months with 1200mcg folate. I have more recently upped my b12 up with subdermal oils. Some people take way more folate than this but I respond well with that regime.

    I suspect for you it will take quite a slow gradual increase. It may take 6 months for you to begin to see any difference and expect some fluctuation in symptoms along the way ( I had IBS flare ups and started getting flu like symptoms and heart palpitations for a while). I also had the nausea and mount ulcers from too little folate.

    We are all a bit different in how we respond, some can't tolerate folic acid or methyl forms of b12 whereas others thrive on it. I responded well to oral initially by improving cognitive dysfunction, but the physical stamina improvements came much later with the much higher doses of b12. It takes about a year of optimal b12 dose to get your liver reserves of b12 up if like me it is quite depleted. It's only since being on the higher dose I now notice that I can delay my next dose for up to 3 hrs before noticing that I need it.

    Is it possible you are overestimating what you can do at the moment? I know my capacity drops with hot weather and pollen count. It's possible that there are things that are draining your reserves at the moment without you realising ? I use a heart rate monitor which shows me when I'm over doing it physically. There is a definite difference when it's hot and humid ( my heart raises with just the smallest exertion). Before the b12, I couldn't do more than an hours cognitive work before feeling foggy. Perhaps you are the same?

    Pushing through is bad ...when you feel like doing that ...tell yourself off and have a sit or preferably lie down.;)

    I hope you manage to get through your DWP assessment and things calm down a bit. Let us know how you get on and take care of yourself.
     
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  16. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    I think @arewenearlythereyet has given you some good advice and I'd try what she recommends.

    My feeling is that 1 drop of the methylcobalamin was not responsible for how sick you got because it was such a low dose. I think it very likely was a coincidence and you may have just gotten a nasty bug. And you'd been taking the very low dose of B12 for almost 3 weeks before you got so sick, and the B complex for about week before getting sick. So you did have some good days in there.

    And again, I've never heard of B12 itself causing your symptoms. @alicec said she did have some of your symptoms in connection with not enough folate for the amount of B12 she took. However, your B12 dose was so low, I doubt if this was the issue for you. But, as always, I can't say for sure. Perhaps the folic acid in your B complex did inhibit your folate cycle leading to your problems. If there is any culprit here, apart from the possibility of just getting sick, I would lean towards the folic acid and not your very small dose of B12. Again, you might consider a B complex that has methylfolate instead of folic acid.

    I've had to do so much experimentation to find out what works, or doesn't, for me. And have 4 main rules of thumb: (1) learn about what I'm doing before I start; (2) start low; (3) go slow and (4) only introduce one new thing at a time. This has served me pretty well.
     
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  17. MargUK

    MargUK

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    Thank you @Mary and @arewenearlythereyet - that was good advice but I think I've been so shaken by the last 3 weeks that I just wouldn't be able to go anywhere near any more B complex for a while. I agree with your rule of thumb @Mary about introducing one thing at a time but I'm still confused about the sole use of the Bluebonnet oil. Did I pick up correctly that it's useless to take it on its own or is it possible that it might work without taking anything else? This is one of the things I'm really struggling with at the moment - normally your 4 rules would be exactly what I would do myself but Number one is proving just too hard. The information about the issues relating to this illness is like a foreign language to me so I'm trying to pick up bits and pieces here and there as I read posts and it's just not how I would normally go about things at all. But I also don't want to just sit here and be ill when there could be things out there which might make a difference to my health. I suppose I had laughingly expected the medical profession to do this bit!!

    As for pacing I find it incredibly difficult because the rules seem to keep changing on a daily basis! I can be with my grandchildren (age 4 and 2) for a few hours one day and think okay I'm going to suffer for this tomorrow but be absolutely fine then another day walk for half an hour and be in the bed the whole of the next day - it's so damned unpredictable that I find it impossible to keep on top of - in the sense of knowing what's too much and what's not. I generally go by how I feel physically so if I feel rubbish I won't 'push' and will rest as soon as is possible. That's one reason I wouldn't go to the DWP assessment yesterday - I knew I wasn't physically or mentally well enough for it and I also knew I wouldn't be believed if I became ill in the middle of it. I just wasn't prepared to put myself through that.

    How I feel mentally also makes a huge difference - if I can manage to take care of myself, the house and the (small) garden even if it's in little bits and pieces, that makes me feel like I'm still in control - there is just so so much I've had to give up that I feel it's worth trying to hang on to the tiny bits that are left!

    This illness goes against every natural grain in our bodies and it's really hard to get used to that.
     
  18. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Hi @MargUK - I don't have all the answers, there are many on the board more knowledgeable than me, but I'll take a stab at answering your questions.

    Re the B12 - I don't think it's useless to take it on its own. It might help you. You did seem to do okay for almost 3 weeks while taking it so I think it's worth trying again. You may eventually do better with adding in more of the Bs as well.

    But - there are people who are extremely sensitive to B vitamins so some have to start with literally crumbs and maybe you're one of them. And again, if or when you add in other B vitamins or a B complex, I think it would be good to avoid folic acid. It can deplete your body of folate because it competes for absorption with folate. And if you're one of the many who can't convert folic acid into folate, then you could wind up with a folate deficiency, causing problems.

    Why do you think you were reacting to the B complex, and weren't just sick? You might be right as it often is very difficult to tell what is going on with this illness, what is causing what. But I am curious why you are pretty certain you weren't just sick. I often feel like a detective, trying to solve mysteries here and look for any clues I can find.

    I think going by how you feel on any given day, as you are doing, is the best way to go. I've learned the same thing as you, not to push and to rest when I need to. I hate living this way but if I don't do this, I pay a price, as you have learned.

    I think an answer will be found, hopefully in the not too distant future! Take care --
     
  19. MargUK

    MargUK

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    Thanks @Mary. To be honest I have no idea what caused what - as so many of us do with this illness I was pretty much stumbling about in the dark! It could well have been a bug which my body just couldn't get rid of - I think what made me wonder about the B stuff was just the fact that it was the only new thing which I'd introduced and also that the symptoms resembled a little bit of how I felt when I doubled my dose of Vitamin D3 one time - and it took around 10 days for that to be felt as well. So it was just a theory. I just thought if it was a bug the whole feeling sick and just 'ill' wouldn't have hung about for so long maybe? I think it just frightened me. I do know I made things worse by eating a tub of cous cous which had lain in my daughter's boot for 2 hours with her shopping on a pretty warm day (!) and I also had a urine infection in the middle of it for which I had to take antibiotics (but only for 24 hours) which always make me feel sick. So there were factors which certainly weren't helping but I think it was just the fact that I had taken something new which set alarm bells ringing and when I stopped taking the Vitamin B complex I certainly began to feel better gradually.

    Once I hopefully get back to roughly where I was before I started taking the B complex, I'll give the oil a go again and work my way up gradually and see where that takes me. For now I'm just glad not to be stuck in bed staring at those 4 walls again and not feeling constantly nauseous. I'm a bit shattered today but that's fine because at least there's a reason for it after spending time with my daughter and granddaughters yesterday.

    I think I was also really shaken at just how easy it is to 'disappear' from life. My life was pretty small before this happened but being reduced to bed and hardly even managing to feed and take care of my 3 cats, never mind myself, just brought me to a very dark place when thinking about the future. I don't know if I'm strong enough to cope if this thing gets worse and that worries me a lot.
     
  20. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Hi @MargUK - Yeah, way too much we are all stumbling around in the dark with this illness, trying to figure out what is doing what. One thing that has helped me a lot is muscle testing done by a competent chiropractor. He helped me sort out several different digestive issues and found my weak adrenals, and also helped with detoxing issues. I eventually learned to do it myself, but still go see a chiropractor periodically to check on things. Without the muscle testing, I know I would be a lot worse off. Because the regular doctors were helpless with all of this.

    And also I've used myself as a guinea pig dozens of times with various supplements, and the muscle testing has been invaluable there, helping me to sort out if I was sick or detoxing or reacting to a supplement, etc.

    Re the future - I'm better off than I was 10 years ago, due to all my experimenting and reading (and the muscle testing, of course). I'm on I think a pretty good course of supplements, overall have more energy, don't get sick as much, though of course am still quite limited in what I can do due to PEM. But I think there's reason for hope.

    It sounds like you have a good plan - good luck!
     

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