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Could eATP be the serum factor causing ME/CFS? (Ron Davis / Naviaux / CDR)

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Jesse2233, Oct 23, 2017.

  1. Jesse2233

    Jesse2233 Senior Member

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    In a nutshell Dr Ron Davis (and Drs Fluge / Mella) have found that "something in the serum" is causing ME/CFS cells to behave abnormally (hypometabolic) and that by putting the cells in healthy serum they become normal.

    Dr Robert Naviaux posits that the leaking of eATP by mitochondria is a cell danger single that leads to hypometabolism across a variety of chronic illnesses including ME/CFS and Autism (he famously hopes that the anti-purinergic drug suramin will "plug up the holes" preventing eATP from leaking and restoring normal metabolism).

    This may be too neat and simple a conclusion, but might that eATP be Dr Davis' mystery serum factor?

    Is eATP large enough to match Davis' filter size?

    Am I garbling Naviaux's CDR theory?
     
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  2. Murph

    Murph :)

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    Your reading of Naviaux is right, I believe, but Ron has tested ATP and found it in fact fixes the cells exposed to me/cfs serum, so they behave normally.

    "Perhaps the most striking clue Davis has uncovered thus far is the ability of plasma from ME/CFS patients to make healthy controls’ cells look like ME/CFS cells when stressed, and the ability of plasma from healthy controls to rejuvenate ME/CFS patients’ cells. Davis has found that pyruvate, a substance which bypasses glycolysis, and ATP – a signaling molecule (outside the cell) – makes ME/CFS patients cells look healthy again"

    https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2...-explored-open-medicine-foundation-symposium/
     
  3. Jesse2233

    Jesse2233 Senior Member

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    I'd forgotten that, thanks @Murph

    Strange that ATP normalizes the cell. Does that then serve to invalidate Naviaux's theory or is the reality more complex? (Perhaps an overabundance of ATP temporarily supercharges metabolism by overloading the mito whereas a smaller "leaked" amount serves as the CDR signal).
     
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  4. Murph

    Murph :)

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    It's not great for Naviaux' theory, is it! I suspect they tested ATP expecting things to get worse. But if could be a dosage issue. different ATP concentrations could have very different effects.

    Don't forget we have no idea what the impedance means. Could correspond to a failure or a compensatory mechanism. maybe all that atp kills the compensatory mechanism making impedance look fine but the real problem intensifies, while remaining unnoticed because it does not impact electrical impedance.

    I seem to remember @JaimeS got her cells (or was it serum?) tested on the nanoneedle. Anything else you can tell us, Jaime? Have they increased the sample of sufferers who've been tested yet? Anyone's serum that hasn't worked ? any new substances tested, etc?
     
  5. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

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    This study is quoted by Naviaux paper:

    Extracellular ATP in the immune system: more than just a "danger signal".

    Trautmann A1.

    Abstract
    Extracellular adenosine 5'-triphosphate (eATP) is ubiquitously used for cell-to-cell communication. The low concentration of eATP ([eATP]) that exists in a "halo" surrounding resting cells signals the presence of neighboring living cells. Transient increases in [eATP] are used for basic physiological signaling, namely, in the nervous and vascular systems. Larger increases in [eATP] that are associated with cell death serve as a key "danger" signal in inflammatory processes. Two studies now point to roles for ATP in the immune system: providing a costimulatory signal to T cells and driving the differentiation of intestinal T helper 17 (T(H)17) cells.
     
  6. Jesse2233

    Jesse2233 Senior Member

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    Interesting, thanks @pattismith

    So it seems concentration and duration of eATP play a role in how cells react

    Re-reading Naviaux's Cell Danger paper, it's almost poetic how he ties everything together. There are more treatment implications in it than I'd realized too (beyond suramin)
     
  7. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    ATP is small - around 500 daltons. The filter cut-off was around 10,000 daltons (the size of a small protein) as far as I recall.
     
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  8. Jesse2233

    Jesse2233 Senior Member

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    Thanks @alicec

    Given that size descrepency, perhaps release of eATP as an inhibitatory signal (if it is in fact present) is a downstream effect of the mystery serum element
     
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