Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
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Could Copper play a role

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by 2manyhobbies, Jun 19, 2017.

  1. 2manyhobbies

    2manyhobbies

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    I know it is largely viewed as a toxic heavy metal Copper, or Cu from here is a big player in our bodies as long as it is bound to cerroplasm, its carrier protein.
    A lot of people are using large doses of MSM thinking it a miracle molecule but beware it is a weak chelator of metals and may redistribute them-- not good. MSM will pull Cu from your system and from my experience and subsequent research this is ultimately counter productive. Cu plays a roll in detox enzymes and if lacking will drive cholesterol levels upward. It also plays an important role in energy production which is why I'm posting here for all to read and hopefully research further. ATP is dependent on Magnesium and Cu to be produced and when ATP is low energy levels will be as well.
    Cu supplementation is a two edge sword however as Zinc and Cu must be balanced- both are vital to vibrant health. In my research many who are seeking more energy look toward iron but in doing so may be doing further harm. If Cu or Zn is deficient adding Fe only worsens things- iron is toxic above needed amounts and if ferritin is over 50 you have plenty and raising it only produces more oxidative stress- increasing need for all the aforementioned minerals which have antioxidant properties.
     
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  2. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    There are researchers that are still looking to prove that copper is the cause of diseases.
    Then there are researchers who are proving otherwise.

    I'm siding with the research that shows copper's health and neuroprotective effects.

    I am also with the research that supports zinc as protective.

    Both copper and zinc help keep iron in check, which is critical, since iron can become neurotoxic because mammals are not equipped with a good system to dispose it.
     
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  3. PinkPanda

    PinkPanda Senior Member

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    I personally think copper binding and bioavailability are rather complex and depend on a few things.
    Glutathione binds to copper, possibly making it more bioavailable and ceruloplasmin production depends on the adrenals. Many me/cfs patients have problems with glutathione levels and adrenal function. So I think it's rather likely that there is are problems with copper binding rather than a 'real' copper deficiency.
    If you then take copper it might reduce glutathione by binding to it and that is bad for the antioxidative system.
    I just read that vitamin b5 binds copper and magnesium helps glutathione production. So those are rather some of the substances I'd look at.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
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  4. 2manyhobbies

    2manyhobbies

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  5. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    Copper is important... I've had 4 excellent doctors, and they all seem to be interested in my ceruloplasmin and copper.

    It is easy to become copper toxic, so do not supplement without proper labwork.
     
  6. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    I've had labs for an Iron Panel, serum Copper , and ceruloplasmin, a copper protein, done twice so far.

    I have iron overload , and taking copper glycinate brought my iron levels into normal range.

    Ceruloplasmin was still low normal. I hope to bring it up since it's critical for iron metabolism.

    When ceruloplasmin is low, iron tends to accumulate in organs, especially the brain.
     
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  7. 2manyhobbies

    2manyhobbies

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    Wow that's a huge revelation to me! My ferritin levels are still high but my GP is at a loss to what's going on.

    She advised me to take some CoQ10 and kind signed off.

    My other markers were decent (tibc,transferrin, serum iron)

    To top that my cardiologist didn't flinch and prescribed (predictably) a statin drug due to high
    ldl. This is in spite of a ferritin over 800!!

    I will have a copper study done-- hopefully the iron can be liberated from places it doesn't belong.

    Thanks a bunch for that info, this is truly a benefit of this forum.
     
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  8. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    Ferritin is an "acute phase reactant". Something is causing your liver to be upset and for the cells to release ferritin.

    When my ferritin hit 600, my doctor recommended that my onclogist send me for a CT scan to check for a cancer recurrence and ran a bunch of cancer marker labs. My oncologist was equally concerned...

    When all those were normal, the conclusion was that a chronic c. pneumoniae infection is in my liver making it and. Working on that has reduced my serum ferritin to the mid 200s, still high for a female...

    I also have abnormal iron study numbers and have for awhile. I am compound heterozygous for the 2 main HFE SNPs and have a mild case of hemachromatosis underlying everything.

    As your iron study is normal, you should be looking for what else might be causing inflammation in your liver...or if you think its hemachromatosis, its an easy lab test to check for HFE SNPs (they're in 23andme also).
     
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  9. 2manyhobbies

    2manyhobbies

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    Again a huge push in the right direction! It seems like all puzzles are solved one piece at a time

    . I had a serious bacterial infection in Feb. and my liver enzymes (ALT I think) were mildly elevated. Ferritin has fallen to 345 in this months test.

    I am aware of phase reactive proteins and incidentally CRP is one as well. Mine was under 3 at last count and liver enzymes are back to normal.

    Did you ferritin fall at a slow steady pace to there present level?

    My goal is a ferritin level of 50 as I have had bypass and wouldn't want to repeat that adventure.
     
  10. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    My ferritin fell a bit at a time, going down, up, down to get to its current level. CRP, AST, ALT, and GGT are good to monitor.

    I'm needing to pursue phlebotomy, carefully. My primary doctor is very concerned about it increasing my fatigue. He also says not to go below 60 or it will negatively impact my mitochondria. I think I'd be happy to get it under 100 for now, but am consulting with a hematologist to put everything in context.

    Maybe you just need to be patient and keep doing nice things for your liver and things will settle down. If they don't, then its wise to look for a cause.;)
     
  11. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Ferritin can be raised when the body withholds iron from infection.

    Copper is antimicrobial, and is needed to regulate B cells, T cells, WBC, etc.

    With low copper, there can be a lot of cardiovascular problems.

    Here's a good overview :
    https://www.dcnutrition.com/minerals/copper-cu/

    Dr. Leslie Klevay is a great copper researcher, but his more recent work is behind paywalls :
    http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/2/489S.full

    Another good overview :
    http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/minerals/copper
     
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  12. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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  13. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    I've had I don't know how many lung infections since I was a kid.
    It's hard for me to like iron right now, it's caused a lot of pain/ infections.
    But iron is essential .


    Here is another article re iron and C. pneumoniae infection :
    https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2017/3642301/

    I see in this study that the cu/zn ratio increased. It looks like copper was being mobilized to fight the infection.
    I've read that copper countertops inhibit C. pneumoniae, but not much else.

    Copper does inhibit many other microbes, though. Some do use small amounts of it, but it can kill in larger amounts.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4464932/
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017

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