The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
OverTheHills presents the first article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME international Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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could b12 improve stomach motility?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by ottiebow, Feb 18, 2012.

  1. ottiebow

    ottiebow

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    A question for a B12 guru as I don't understand the science bit.....

    I have bad stomach motility problems on top of CFS. Could the B12 inj help with stomach and gut motility or might they make it worse? I have read B12 can help nerve function so could this include stomach nerves.

    I'm now on inj every other day as i'm having a really bad phase,

    any thoughts would be welcome

    thanks
     
  2. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, ottiebow.

    For what it's worth, I think that the low gastric motility in ME/CFS is due to low stomach acid. Since stomach acid normally acts as a signal when it reaches the duodenum, and calls for digestive enzymes, I think that lack of enough of it will slow down the whole process.

    Here's a do-it-yourself test for stomach acid: On an empty stomach, such as first thing in the morning, drink an 8-ounce glass of water into which you have mixed one-quarter teaspoon of baking soda. Time how long it takes you to burp. If you haven't burped within two minutes, you have low stomach acid.

    If your stomach acid is low, you can try taking betaine-HCl pills, or you can take the Allergy Research Group dilute hydrochloric acid.

    I also believe that the low stomach acid in ME/CFS is due to glutathione depletion in the parietal cells of the stomach. This should eventually be improved by doing the methylation protocol, which does include B12, but is not limited to it alone. You can find the protocol I have suggested in part 7 of my documents, located in the General Wiki pages of this forum, accessible at the bottom of the "Forum" page.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  3. ottiebow

    ottiebow

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    thanks Rich

    Interesting I have done an stomach acid test, I had to swallow a capsule (20 mins after eating a protein meal) and then pull the string back out through my mouth. It did show my stomach was very alkaline, I am now taking betaine hcl 1 or 2 capsule with each meal. I've been taking them for about a year but not noticed any improvement in my stomach nausea. I think i need to up the dose to 3 capsules. Also i never burp no matter what i've eaten.

    I will read your protocol on the wiki pages.

    Just looked back on some test results - my Glutathoine peroxidase results were very low but are now much better - been taking selenium 200 for 8months, so this may have helped. My Superoxide Dismutase studies are all now normal.
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Ottiebow,

    Low b12 can cause problems with the tissues that lead to low stomach acid. Also lack of adb12 can cause a low stomach motility as well as affecting the nerves. Mb12 and adb12 are both needed along with cofactors to heal the stomach. Many find the Betaine HCL is helpful.
     
  5. Waverunner

    Waverunner Senior Member

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    Could the B12 also help with acid reflux caused by too much stomach acid caused by intolerances against nearly all foods?
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Waverunner,

    Just looking at where I was at the last month before starting mb12 might help illustrate. I couldn't tolerate most foods. An ellimination diet told me nothing, they were all equally bad. I had constant nausea and took Compazine suppositories to allow me to control it enough to eat. I threw up daily. I had multiple eruptions of acid up my throat in the middle of the night. If that is what you are calling acid reflux, then I certainly had it. The nausea, vomitting and nighttime acid surges all went away within a couple of weeks of starting. Since then I have NEVER had to get a refill on the Compazine suppositories, I haven't vomitted, I haven't had a single acid surge up my throat at any time of day or night. I had no idea that so much would change so fast. Only the IBS remained, itermittantly, until recently solving the paradoxical folate deficiency problem.
     
  7. Waverunner

    Waverunner Senior Member

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    That sounds very good. I have exactly the same acid reflux problem. It's getting worse after eating certain foods but it never goes away. I ordered all the supps for the protocol today including the potassium. I really hope that all these problems diminish.
     
  8. ottiebow

    ottiebow

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    Good to hear that you nausea has improved Fredd, my nausea is never due to to much acid. I had a gastric emptying scan which shows my stomach does not have parastelis waves. It appears to have no movement.

    I live with terrible nausea and vomiting daily, and have to take suppository anti-emetic in order to eat small amounts.

    Would you suggest mb12 and betaine hcl? is there anything else that you would think might help with this type of nausea? I'm already taking Hydrox B12 half a mil daily now.

    thanks
     
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Ottiebow,

    Adb12, metafolin, all basic vitamins and minerals. I had a prescription for Reglan for decades used as needed.
     
  10. ottiebow

    ottiebow

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    I am also on 3 different types of antiemetics, I need at least one type each day often two. How does the Metafolin help with the stomach and nausea?
     
  11. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    Ottiebow...

    There are other stomach acids tests...the one I have used is to take 1 HCL pill with a meal of a certain size and if your stomach does not feel warm afterward then the next time you eat a meal of that size add a pill (up to 7). If your stomach does feel warm, then subtract a pill next time you eat a meal that size.

    But in practice, idk how you could go for a year w/o enough stomach acid...the symptoms you should notice (besides bloating and belching, which I suppose may not be there as they are due to pathogens in the gut which grow due to the wrong ph - but if you are taking something to kill said pathogens, you may not have THOSE symptoms). But what you surely will(?) feel is a thick coated tongue and a craving for acidic foods or beverages. And in fact, if you should care to splash a bit of apple cider vinegar in water to taste (and taste will depend on how alkaline you are - but try just 1-2 tablespoons to start because in most cases more would be too much) and drink it you should find that it hits the spot and thins out the coating on the tongue (which is caused by stuff in your stomach not going down).

    The only reason that medical science has been able to determine causes low stomach acid is thyroid issues. It is well known that the standard range for "normal thyroid" is as wide as a barn door and includes many people with thyroid out of range symptoms. Also the medical community is amassing quite a body of evidence that - for instance, high cholesterol occurs at certain so-called normal thyroid ranges and not others (so the normal range should be greatly reduced). You could check at www.lef.org for thyroid blood test ranges and a discussion of what disease states have been associated with TSH or FREE T3 in a huge section of the 'normal' range.

    Rydra

    Um, I have a book The Metabolic Code and I just found out about this endless circle that you need to be aware of: If for whatever reason you become low iron, this means you cannot make sufficient thyroid hormone (I forget if T4 or T3). If for whatever reason, you can't make sufficient thyroid hormone, then you cannot make sufficient stomach acid. If you cant make sufficient stomach acid for whatever reason, then you cannot digest phenylalanine, which is needed to make tyrosine, another amino acid you cant digest well without HCL, and tyrosine is needed to make thyroid hormone -- AN ENDLESS CYCLE! So to break it you'll need HCL (or some other acid might do, such as apple cider vinegar) and to get your protein level up. I just learned this and wanted to share.

    Take care
    Rydra
     
  12. ottiebow

    ottiebow

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    thanks Rydra i can relate to a lot of what you said. My TSH was 3.5 and my iron has always been low. I've managed to get my ferrtin up to 50 and my TSH to 1.9 with the help of Iron and Selenium and maybe betaine HCL as well.

    My new batch of betaine has arrived so I will try upping my dose with each meal.

    thanks for everyones help, this site is so informative.
     
  13. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    hi everybody.

    If you stopped your protocol would all these symptoms come back you think?

    I have stomach issues now and wonder if I will be stuck with them if I can't get my infections under control and keep them under control. The stomach dysfunction is a bummer.

    Thanks
    Mark
     
  14. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    Ottiebow, I also learned that low iron causes low dopamine - If found it under Wiki dopamine and so did a google search and found it's true - I don't know which enzyme uses it as a cofactor yet but what I read led me to believe that low iron will also cause low serotonin. I have been low iron my whole life due to recurrant fibroid tumors and now I am thinking this may be the ultimate cause of the fact that my tests always show low dopamine and low serotonin...that it is not my BH4 deficiency genes doing this to me but something more basic -- low iron. I may be more sensitive to dietary deficiencies than others due to my genes, but in the end it is starting to appear that it is the deficiency at the heart of things.

    fyi, Wiki also says mfolate and zinc are cofactors in making cholinergic hormones. What kills me is that epinephrine is a cholinergic hormone and I have suffered lifelong from severe allergies (worse than any my alergist has ever seen in 20 years practice -- and bad enough the whenever I see someone I knew in High School they have to comment on 'how bad my allergies were'). Now I am wondering if low iron was at the heart of that too. But I have to note that Fredd's mfolate and zinc are also on the list as cofactors in making dopamine. I have rarely been low zinc as I supplemented that heavily all my life, but I have the gene that requires mfolate and am not sure I am supplementing at optimal dose...I am supplementing enough to get normal homocysteine so for now that's enough, but once I get basic deficiencies taken care of I might explore mfolate dosing a bit.

    Just thought you should know low iron causes low thyroid hormone (andthus low HCL), low cortisol, low dopamine, low epinephrin, and possibly low serotonin...and that's just all I know which isn't much. I actually think low dopamine has more to do with depression than low serotonin, but that's just my gut feel. If you buy a tyrosine supplement 500mg and take it with your iron and HCL you might find you feel better faster. It has a definite prompt positive effect for me.

    Rydra
     
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Ottiebow,

    I was already taking the basics when I added the mb12. My stomach healed withing weeks along with other epithelial tissues. So I would suppose that you would be lookng for the epithelial tissue healing to switch on along with potassium needs increasing. I know how miserable that is. Good luck.
     
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Mark,

    It took me years to get to that miserably low state. I imagine it would take some years now as well as these tissues seem quite well healed and don't seem reponsive to small changes orr even the more severe changes of the glutathione disaster.
     
    markmc20001 likes this.

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