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Copper - Your Hair Mineral Test

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by xks201, Jun 5, 2012.

  1. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    Just curious if anyone has had a hair mineral test? I know copper is a cofactor in neurotransmitter synthesis (norepinephrine especially). The few tests I have seen via a brief search here all showed low copper. I understand that even if the test shows high copper this may be indicative of an inability to absorb it. If anyone has any copper results or other mineral deficiencies I would like us to chat about this in the thread.

    On a personal note I find taking copper on a daily basis (4mg) stops the high histamine release I appear to have and works better at inhibiting hyperactivity than even klonopin. Copper is unique in that it is not found in everyone's diet in sufficient amounts (especially not mine). I have tried supplementing with zinc, magnesium, and every other mineral with no real success aside from copper. Zinc makes me want to throw up. Iron makes me extremely tired (possibly antagonizing copper?).

    Finally we see copper is a cofactor in the methylation cycle.
     
    CJB likes this.
  2. Athene

    Athene ihateticks.me

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    I had a urine test that showed I have very high copper. I was told that high copper is very common in CFS. It's part of KDM's standard workup (urine test not hair) and I met several patients who confirmed that they also had very high copper results.
    He follows the reasoning some other doctors do that hair tests reflect levels of minerals that you are excreting, which doesn't necessarily correspond with what is inside you.

    I've done a lot of reading to try to understand it, and I think what goes on is that we are unable to use the copper properly - so we have it stockpiling, but in a bio-unavailable form. Therefore we have too much copper but the symptoms of copper deficiency. This is what I have.
    I have been taking supplements of the various copper co-factors that help the body actually us it - they are zinc, molybdenum and vitamin A, and all the ones that support adrenal gland function (a long list, I'll post it if you want to know it!). You need cortisol to use copper properly and so when your adrenal glands are exhausted by chronic infection or inflammation, you stop using copper properly (I believe this happens becaue you stop making enough of certain copper enzymes).
    I haven't had my copper levels retested since doing all this. I do think the vitamin A is working. Apparently vitamin A gets copper and deposits it in the skin to produce suntan, and I have actually tanned for the first time in about 28 years.
    Some things are stil not working though.
    One of the other jobs copper does is help keep candida and other yeast infections under control, and I have had no improvement in that department. I don't know what is the missing factor there.
    It also plays a role in sulphur metabolism, and again, there has been little or no improvement. That interacts with the methylation cycle and I just cannot get that one properly figured out as I seem to have genetic problems and cannot tolerate folic acid, adn don't seem to use B12 properly.

    That was a big brain dump on copper, I know it doesn't fit with the way you're currently thinking but I hope it was useful.
    Whatever else you find out about how the body uses copper, please share it here!
     
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  3. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    Athene you are a very smart person thank you for that information. I have not done a lot of research on copper but I believe you are right in stating that high copper can mean the body is simply not utilizing it properly. I know the molybdenum and calcium are capable of chelating copper out of the body, though in our case that may not be what we want. The vitamin A idea is interesting. I am also quite pale.

    I know as you probably already do that copper is required for the body to use iron. And iron deficient people are also fatigued. I have read that copper is useful for fungal problems. And many metals are antibacterial. My thoughts are that if the body is not utilizing copper properly, the sympathetic nervous system may hyperactivate (from undermethylation/lowered neurotransmitter production since copper is a cofactor). Then histamine is produced in response to the hyperactive nervous system response (sorry I cannot articulate this better at the moment because I don't have time this minute to research the exact mechanism). But stress does activate histamine.

    We see people with gastric bypass and malabsorption issues requiring copper supplementation. Gut inflammation may inhibit its absorption.

    Another person "dog person" or something on this forum posted this
    I learned this from Dog Person (Christine) that: "...you can not manufacture sulfite oxidase enzyme to detoxify them (sulphites) probably because your molybdenum is too low. It keeps dropping when you have too much unbound copper.
    As soon as you take B2, you start binding copper and the molybdenum just comes up without supplementation because you only need a tiny amount of mcg/day of it. "


    http://www.labtestingone.com/dr-wil...nando-gomez-pinilla-phd-on-your-brain-on-food
    Dr Bill Walsh talks about using selenium, vitamin c, and vit e to control high copper. I am not sure which ones are pure chelators and which ones are cofactors to actually use the high copper.
     
    Athene likes this.
  4. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    Found this interesting post on another forum - not by any means definitive but interesting
    "BBQ I would suggest the cutler proton on this...look at my old posts. It is the most straight forward and it will work, no doubt. The other things to remember is that if you are low in biounavailable copper you are high histamine, this is a medical fact. And this also means you are undermethylated which means your body is having a very hard time releasing toxins. histamines are not only an actual neurotransmitter but they hyper stimulate the hypothalamus releasing ACTH. This is all well documented in medical research....high histamines can make you have intense panc, breathing problems, headaches, hives, access mucus, flushing, and in severe cases schitzophrenic symptoms. I figured out my DR DP was directly related to high histamines. Dr. Pfieffer at the brain bio center has protocols surrounding copper and histamne imbalance which he believes are the sole reason for mental illness and many medical issues....I have to say I agree. Since I started methionine, calcium glucarate and high dose vitamin c my high histamine symptoms are disappearing. This was the missing
    No for me since I improved to 80 percent this summer after detoxing copper but couldn't get to the finish line...I'm less than 2 weeks into the protocol and I am a believer. I also believe adrenal fatigue is an incorrect way of labeling this illness....the adrenals are fine, it's just stress that causes estrogen dominance which in turn causes copper retention and high histamnes . It's a snow ball effect and the adrenals are just the innocent victims. I'm glad you finally figured it out for yourself.
    Oh and most important...NEVER use extra copper with low ceruloplasmin...it will seriously damage your organs and cause neurological issues you want nothing to do with...."


    http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=1890937
     
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  5. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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  6. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi XKS201;

    I haven't had hair minerals testing or other types yet, so I'm not able to be helpful in that way, but I thought I would bring up the issue of nausea when supplementing zinc. Of course, it could mean that zinc is not necessary at this time.

    It could also indicate that a zinc cofactor is needed. Some practitioners recommend B6 to reduce nausea from zinc.

    When I restarted zinc 3 mnths. ago, I initially had nausea, headaches, increased fatigue, etc. Those symptoms are now mostly gone. I'm guessing that they were symptoms of detox of copper and probably even cadmium.

    If the symptoms had worsened or continued for longer than these months, I would have questioned my need for this supplement.

    It's unfortunate that tests of all types haven't yet proven to be entirely accurate. I still think testing can be helpful when compared to symptoms, but I usually end up making a specimen of myself anyway.
     
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  7. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    I have had hair mineral testing. My copper is low normal, but that may be because I was taking copper as part of a macular degeneration treatment for some time before the test.

    I was low in potassium, cobalt (B12), and molybdenum in the major nutritional elements. The only one I have been able to raise using supplementation is molybdenum. I had a potassium blood test done and it was low normal. My problem is getting the potassium from the blood into the cells, which is not uncommon in ME/CFS.

    They also tested some additional elements whose requirements in the body is less well defined. I am low in most of them. The one I found interesting is lithium, since it is needed for B12 and methylfolate utilization and may help sleep. I have recently started supplementing it.
     
  8. Athene

    Athene ihateticks.me

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    Thanks for all the really useful info xks. The histamine connection really makes sense. I have very high histamine and the copper link there would fit logically.
    I must look into my dose of B2 and see if I could improve anything by increasing it a bit...
     
    Star-Anise likes this.
  9. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1

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    My hair test showed my copper as being extremely high but my blood tests for copper are normal (thou I have heard that copper blood tests arent very reliable thing to go by at all).

    My molybdenum is low .. nearly nil @ .01 (molybdenum helps copper leave the body). My specialist has me on molybdenum supplementation and that has certainly helped my brain and within days I was able to do maths in my head again... whether its cause I was getting brain symptoms from how low it was or whether its cause of it helping copper in my tissues be removed, I dont know.

    I was also low in many other things too, borderline low cobalt. Also low tungstn, low germanium, low bismuth, low lithium, low platium, low thallium .... Those additional elements sciencists dont really know how they affect the body yet but they may be possibly essential.
     
  10. mpw

    mpw

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    Hi. I'm pretty new here so I don't know if this has been discussed anywhere else. If it has perhaps someone can direct me?

    I'm pretty sure I have a situation with bio-unavailable copper. I have high histamine issues and now am having a hard time taking iron which I desperately need. My blood copper is far from low (serum results: 130 (range 72-166), but I absolutely have deficiency problems. From everything I have read about copper no where other than the comment above "On a personal note I find taking copper on a daily basis (4mg) stops the high histamine release" does it say that one should supplement copper when a bio-unavailable issue is present. Can someone comment on this? Is anyone supplementing even if their blood and/or hair doesn't show it's needed? Is Serum Copper blood testing reliable enough to give it much weight?

    Thank you so much.
     
  11. paymanz

    paymanz

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    dannybex and Little Bluestem like this.
  12. SB_1108

    SB_1108

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    I've been using hair analysis testing to measure my copper for over a year now. I posted about my experience here:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/copper-toxicity.23445/

     
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  13. aprilk1869

    aprilk1869 Senior Member

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    Morley "Magnesium Man" Robbins said that magnesium is needed to bind ceruloplasmin to copper

    "Folks, be very careful about Copper... One of the great ravaging forces in many bodies is "unbound" Copper, which is a heavy metal in that form. Oh man, what's he talking about now?!?...
    Turns out that we need micro amounts of Copper, right? Absolutely. But what too few know or understand is that to be at all effective, Copper must be bound to a key protein, Ceruloplasmin. Any body want to guess how many transactions involving Mg-ATP are REQUIRED to bind Copper to that protein?!?... THREE!
    So, the challenge is we are woefully inadequate with Maggie, yet being flooded with Copper via Copper pipes that leach Cu++, CuSO4 that is an anti-fungal agent sprayed on fruits & produce, soy and legumes that are every where in our diet, and BCP that introduce tons of Estrogen which then draws Copper like a magnet. So, the key is to use very bio-available forms of Copper, and be sure to take sufficient Maggie to ensure that there's enough Mg-ATP to go around to bind it... Sorry, for the long-winded answer... Our bodies are somewhat complicated!".
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/Mag...id=476140469120694&offset=0&total_comments=86
     
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  14. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

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    I read somewhere (sorry, cannot remember the source) that one study found taste test regarding some metals was as reliable as serum testing. If it tastes 'good' or 'not metallic', then you may need this mineral; if it tastes 'bad' or 'metallic' you don't need to be supplementing that mineral. Before getting hammered I'll say not necessarily advocating this method, just throwing it out there in the ether.

    That said, I was diagnosed years ago as deficient in cu. My doctor told me to purchase a bottle of chelated copper and take one tablet at rising in the morning and take for one month and then discontinue(he strongly cautioned against taking for any longer period). The interesting thing is at start of supplementing the cu tasted almost sweet and by the end it was a bitter pill indeed to get down.

    So, at least in this case, my doctor's diagnosis (blood and hair testing), and the taste test do not contradict one another.
     
  15. SB_1108

    SB_1108

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    Lou likes this.
  16. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    hi SB

    That's interesting that it took you atleast a year at 50mg's to get your zinc levels up. I have read of some people doing "loading phases"<if tolerable> of zinc, who may or may not even have pyroluria but are deficient in zinc. While I was reading up more on zinc, and I'm deficient myself, I came across this youtube video of Dr. Theresa Ramsey doing a segment on zinc deficiency and even talking about the zinc tally test. I have no idea of the credibility of her, but I find it interesting that she is a proponent of doing a loading phase. She states doing anywhere from 100mg's to 300mg's of elemental zinc for 2-4 weeks. Maybe some people are fearful of taking this much, but from what I've read you only run into problems of toxicity if taking high amounts for an extended amount of time.

    I was taking 50mg's of zinc a day for quite some time and not too long ago I took the zinc tally test. I tasted nothing. Since then I have worked myself up to 150mg's of zinc of which I've only been at this dose for a shade under a week. So far, no complications with nausea, indigestion, etc. Here's the video. It's only just a little under 6 minutes long.



    Rand
     
  17. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    Here's another good read on zinc deficiency..

    "Zinc deficiency is hard to confirm since no single laboratory test is always low. For example, blood levels are sometimes normal in zinc deficient persons due to homeostasis. Urine and hair tissue levels are often elevated in zinc deficiency because of "short circuiting" of zinc through the body and high rates of excretion. The demand for zinc increases under psychological and physiological stress."

    "Absorption of dietary zinc into the bloodstream is usually about 35-45% efficient, but malabsorption syndromes can reduce zinc uptake to about 10-15%."

    "Treatment of mild or moderate zinc depletion can take months to complete. Some cases of severe zinc depletion require a year or more to resolve. Achievement of a proper zinc balance is slowed by growth spurts, injury, illness, or severe stress. In addition, persons with malabsorption or Type A blood respond to treatment more slowly."


    http://www.drkaslow.com/html/zinc.html


    Rand
     
  18. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    Hi all. I believe I'm dancing with biounavailable copper here...

    Been doing Fredd's quartet for a few months now, methylB12, folic acid for just under a year, but just introduced carnitine & adenosylB12 a few months ago.

    Since that time have been having weight gain issues. 10 pounds and counting. I have been getting feedback on another thread in regards to this, and there seems to be a strain of us that are doing the quartet and are experiencing weight gain...

    With the addition of the quartet - my gut has all appearances of healing. I am able to enjoy foods that are high in copper but I had previously eliminated due to having agitation when eating them. The addition of these new foods are probably likely related to my weight gain.

    Interestingly, however, with the addition of these foods in particular, I have noticed better energy overall, and better cardiovascular function.

    There seems to be a no win situation here. And I'm having a bit of a goldilocks syndrome with copper.

    Too little = too little energy
    Too much = fat

    Ha ha ... this appears to be my new learning curve, so any info anyone can through my way would be ++helpful. I have been working on increasing magnesium which seems to be helping the overall picture as well.

    With respect to Zinc - I am having a major issue with supplementing. No matter what form, at smallest doses, I am seeming to get agitation - extreme crabbiness, and then fatigue.

    I'm wondering if the Zinc problems are related to it's role in activating the NMDA glutamate receptors
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21504727
    I know I have huge problems with my glutamate receptors. I eat a low glutamate diet, and in past couldn't even supplement with glutamine due to having the same response that I get to zinc - ++agitation, followed by fatigue...

    I have been contacting different practitioners to see if they can assist with getting a hair test done. I'm ideally looking for someone that can guide me through what I feel is going to be a rather complicated stage of nutritional balancing & has @ least some knowledge of methylation, adrenal fatigue/hypglycemia, post-parasite infection.

    No one so far wants to take my case on, ha ha... anyone surprised?
     
  19. Dannylingo

    Dannylingo

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    Copper did wounders for me and helps me tolerate b6. I have no more pins an needles after I added copper and b6 together as these work to make diamine oxidase active. I believe the reason some people don't do well on b6 is due to a copper deficiency. You guys need to break out of your one way tracked minds! Everywhere on the Internet it's alway "too much copper" but in the experience of this kid and me it was to little!! Internet advice goes viral and it blinds people to other possibilities! You can't just assum copper toxicity is what you have! I don't have eczema anymore and my mucous membranes took a turn for the better after b6 and copper.
     
    dannybex likes this.
  20. Aerose91

    Aerose91 Senior Member

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    @Star-Anise

    I did a nutritional balancing hair mineral test about 1.5 years ago for my adrenal fatigue. This was before ME hit me. It gave me some good results in that all 4 of my major minerals were low and most heavy metals were high. The biggest one off for me was copper as well- it came back very low but because.of my ratios they concluded that I had high unavailable copper which I guess is common in AF.
    Zinc is usually given to dislodge the copper. When I took even small amounts of zinc I got bad anxiety and sleep disturbances, irritable, etc.. I contacted my practitioner about this and she believed it was the copper being released into my system causing all the discomfort.
    Unfortunately that's as far as I got because right then is when I got encephalitis and subsequently M.E. and I haven't returned to nutritional balancing yet.

    An NB practitioner should be pretty well versed in adrenal fatigue and fibro, hypothyroidism etc. I'm not too sure about methylation and M.E. though, that may be a bit outside of their scope. Most people supplying this aren't doctors but rather people who decided to practice it because they believe in the philosophy.
    I would ask like to find a nutritionist who could walk me through the finer steps of methylation also, though. Treating all this definitely seems to be a dance that needs to be orchestrated perfectly.
     
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