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Copper - whats going on?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by lift, May 6, 2015.

  1. lift

    lift

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    My situation is this, copper supplementation stops panic attacks and severe anxiety for me in low doses(150mcg). And every time I take a supplement that antagonizes copper (zinc, manganese, vitamin C, potassium, B vitamins) I end up with this severe anxiety and feel not right in the head, and that will only cease with copper supplementation. I've also noticed sometimes, clearing of cog fog, increased verbal fluency and some energy increase when taking copper.

    But then with continued supplementation it causes problems of its own. I get a depressed/low mood feeling, and then I start thinking "am I crazy, taking copper supplements? Maybe I am poisoning myself with this heavy metal" And then I stop it immediately, and then the cycle begins over again.

    The thing is I never take more than the RDA in supplementation. For example after a break from supplements, I took 150mcg(15% of 100% RDA capsule) which is my typical anxiety/panic stopping dose, then the next day I took 800mcg which is less than half the RDA, but I still got a depressed feeling.

    My question is, could this negative feeling could be die off? Maybe the copper is killing some pathogens and causing a herxheimer? Which would mean its a good thing and I should continue with it. The other theory I read is for "biounavailable copper", meaning I can be toxic and deficient at the same time. The proponents of that theory suggest taking zinc to force the biounavailable copper out of the body, but i'm not really sold on this theory. My own personal experience is I one time megadosed vitamin C for 3 weeks and after that I had terrible anxiety and dizziness that persisted for 2 weeks and that immediately stopped with copper supplementation.

    Is it a straight copper deficiency? metallothionein deficiency or dysfunction? Both my serum copper level and ceruloplasmin came back smack bang in the middle of the range(but I have read these are both poor indicators of copper status). I have a hair analysis that shows high copper(again, I have read hair analysis is not reliable).

    Anyone else supplement with copper? Whats your experience?
     
  2. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Copper is a thyroid antagonist. Do you know your thyroid levels?
     
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  3. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    I do.
    I take 100% RDA every day, alongside with 30mg of zinc. So far so good.

    I take it because I was low in both Zinc and Copper. Additionally a lab test found moderately elevated pyroluria markers (see signature) which suggested additional zinc (and B6 etc...)

    While zinc has helped quite bit, especially the GI problems, I didn't find particular advantage in taking high Zinc dosages (e.g. > 50mg) so I settled with 30mg which is already high.

    I have done one cycle (60 capsules) of copper 2mg (1x), stopped it for a month and now it's the 2nd cycle. After which I will stop it and test after a while.

    In terms of side effects, none so far.

    I think it's pretty hard to guess what the problem is as the symptoms you have described could be caused by 100s of different things, beyond mineral balance.

    If you suspect a deficiency or imbalance you should test and see. I know some labs can assess both serum and red blood cells zinc/copper.
     
  4. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

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    sounds like "Copper Dump" to me.

    the Zinc (or something else) unbounds the bound Copper in your body and makes Copper flow through your body and as its not excreted fast enough it starts to bounce in your head, causing anxiety and awful feelings.
    So it's not die-off, it's free Copper pushing your receptors.

    I myself worked through this when I was bringing my Zinc levels up to accepted range. It was something I endured. I knew where the anxiety was coming from and I just endured the aweful moods. Within 3 weeks they lessened and where gone.
    I can now supplement Zinc without Copper effects.

    My advice, if you think this is indeed Copper Dump too and you know your Copper levels are too high or your Zinc too low, is to supplement Zinc but supplement low at the beginning, just high enough that you're able to endure the effects. View it as a temporary course. If effects prolong too long review the premise that this is indeed Copper Dump.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2015
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  5. lift

    lift

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    I'm aware of its anti thyroid hormone effect, it was a theory I was chasing for a while. My TSH comes back 1-2.2 and Free T3 is borderline high, the highest being 6.8(3.5-6.8). My endo didnt think it was concerning, but said it could be subclinical hyperthyroid. I had an ultrasound and uptake test. Normal sized thyroid, no nodules, normal uptake.
     
  6. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    So the anxiety and overstimulation might be due to the subclinical hyperthyroidism, which the copper then regulates. I'm not sure why it causes you depression, though, but zinc seems to have a mood lifting effect on me. However, zinc boost thyroid hormones.
     
  7. lift

    lift

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    So if the symptoms are indeed from copper dumps, why would supplementing with copper negate them? Is the "biounavailable" copper competing with "bioavailable" copper?
     
  8. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Ventura, CA
  9. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

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    No idea :thumbdown:
     
  10. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Because it's not "copper dumping". Zinc does not chelate copper, although it does inhibit it's absorption.
     
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  11. lift

    lift

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    Yeah his site is usually the top result when researching anything copper related. Also when you search on curezone you get mostly threads speaking of copper toxicity with links to his site.

    It starts off sciencey enough, but then he throws in a lot of yin and yang crap which I don't buy into. He also has some controversial postings about gay marriage and penis coffee implants(seriously).
     
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  12. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    yeah I thought the same thing, and had some parts that seemed a bit out there for me. He did have an impressive amount of time invested into the copper theory he created though, which is why I thought at least for the most part some of it was worth implementing.
     
  13. AkeBono

    AkeBono

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    @adreno "Because it's not "copper dumping". Zinc does not chelate copper, although it does inhibit it's absorption"

    Hm, i become jittery each time i took zinc even 5 mg. Also nausea and "liver GBL area" blocked for hours.
    I was "happy" i had an explanation with cooper being dumped :). if not cooper related Then how can i explain this?
    and also is it safe to supplement only with zinc? one practitioner told to suplement up to 75/day without problem anoher one said it will took cooper out? any help to explain please?
     
  14. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Those are normal zinc reactions even without copper in the equation. Do you take it on an empty stomach? I would also not worry so much about "having an explanation", most explanations we have can never be fully proven, and are subject to change at any time. The important thing is do you feel better, and over a set period of time is it making an improvement. Different people have differing views and that leads to a lot of contridictary advice. The best approach is middle of the road to avoid all of that confusion. 25-30mg is pretty standard for zinc supplementation, and that is a pretty high end at that.
     
    South likes this.
  15. girlfromeurope

    girlfromeurope Senior Member

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    I had problems too with copper and zinc, I always got a low mood from them. Then I read that vitamin B6 (in P5P form) is needed for copper and zinc absorption, vitamin b6 is also needed to make serotonin, which might explain the low mood.
    So I started taking 25mg of p5p and 10mg zinc/1mg copper and the low mood is gone! Also make sure to take some magnesium with it.
    Hope this helps!
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2015
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  16. cph13

    cph13 Senior Member

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    Any other have success with this combo????
     
  17. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem All Good Things Must Come to an End

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    According to our beloved Rich
    While you don't want the B2 to be too high, you may need some to work with the B6 in making dopamine and norepinephrine.
     
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